CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: Different Stuff  (Read 8063 times)

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ihasmario

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Different Stuff
« on: August 09, 2012, 09:18:35 AM »

I'd like to make several requests for measurement types.
1. I'd like the inclusion of RAW output if you are able to do so (I do not currently have knowledge of your measurement methods).
2. I'd like to see a scientific discussion of the validity of speaker-centric measurements for headphones, particularly those that are modified by treble

To clarify number 2, I'd like to see square wave responses looked at in a once off (if you are capable of doing this). Firstly, I'd like to see them produced traditionally. Secondly, I'd like to see the same square wave reproduced with an EQ placed that is the inverse of the raw response of the headphone (or the HRTF you are/probably are subtracting for the compensated response). If possible I'd prefer actual measurements rather than a transform from an impulse response, or whatever.

I say this because, it is my direct understanding that square waves are affected by treble; scooped/sloped by an excess of treble, and made rounder/sinusoidal with a lack of it. As there is a trend for darker headphones to produce more accurate square waves on most sites, I'd like to see the results.


I'd also like to see more explanations of impulse responses. Although I've only looked at a few measurements, I've seen one (possibly two) of them. For example, ringing that is a result of excess treble is easily identfiiable.

(I'd actually like to see the raw vs compensated measurement for impulse response as well, just to tickle a curiosity)
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Marvey

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 05:48:49 PM »

Will try to include more measurements. I don't do this for a living, so more visualizations means more time away from family and work, which are of course more important to me. I've got a quick-and-dirty workflow down, so it's hard to make changes. The other reason I don't make post SQs and IRs is that Tyll already does so.

As far as square waves and treble, why not look at the FR graph or CSD to see the effect of treble? Those visualizations are much better are discerning the quality of treble than a SQ wave at X frequency. Although I assume you may be interested because it's another measurement technique and want to see SQ data corroborate with other measurements.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:53:56 PM by purrin »
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ihasmario

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 05:40:47 AM »

I'll try to explain my curiosity as best I can; currently working on no sleep because of university.

Assumption 1: Ideal for speakers is to reproduce real life
Assumption 2: The ideal square wave, in real life, though impossible is a perfect square wave
Conclusion 1: Therefore the ideal speaker should produce as close to a perfect square wave (and therefore impulse response??)
Assumption 3: The goal of headphones is to sound like real life, and therefore to produce the same square wave as a speaker AT the ear.

I would say this conclusion is correct, and it shows in our speaker and headphone measurement standards: speakers are measured with a flat microphone (or as close to flat as possible), and plotted more or less as-is. Headphones are designed in a manner that tries to reproduce the same sound at the ear as a flat speaker.

The problem is that this makes headphones a non-flat speaker in practise. Therefore, you will have distortions to the square wave and impulse response, no matter how perfect other aspects of the design are. Of the top of my head the problems are as follows;
1. Treble deficiency causes square waves to become rounded (more sinusoidal).
   -> The reason for this is that a perfect square wave is a stack of an infinite number of odd harmonic sine waves.
2. Treble excess causes a "downwards slope" and ringing in the square wave
3. Treble excess causes ringing (and overshoot?) in the impulse response.

Now, as is my understanding; you can create the squarewave response and the frequency response from the impulse response. Meaning that, with the fourier transforms, they have a strong correlation.

I noticed, in my many hours of analysing headphone graphs a trend in headphones; they all slope downwards, something you'd expect for excess treble.
Now, someone might pipe up and say that it's because headphones are typically bad at producing bass, because of their small surface area. And that's fine. Allow me to post some headroom graphs (Feel free to remove them if you don't want them posted here). Please feel free to paruse them.

Now, based on these graphs: it is my contention that this method headphone analysis is FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG. A bassy speaker should produce a rounded square wave, and a trebly speaker shoudl produce a "sloped" (and ringy) square wave. I feel I've demonstrated the strong correlation between the two.

So, why then, do bassier headphones produce nicer looking square waves than ones that look flat? The answer I have come up with is Equalisation. I'll repost that moller graph from another thread.

Look at the curves (specifically the diffuse field for headphones, because Tyll uses a ID equalisation for his HRTF). Unless I am blind, the difference between the treble spike, and the bass is 105-96=~ About 9dB.

Now, if you'd kindly look at the graph with the LCD-2 (headphonemeasurements3.png). The square waves look pretty good, don't they? I'd like you to work out the difference between the bass and the treble. To my eyes, it looks like the LCD-2's bass curve is centred around about +4 dB, while the higher treble (2.5khz) is what,about -3dB. A 7dB difference, close to the moller curve. There is still a little more treble than the moller curve, which is why the square wave still has some ringing and downward slope. Notice that every headphone in that graph has a similar square wave. It's not a unique property of amazing LCD-2 technology In fact, it looks like the LCD-2 doesn't qutie have the best square wave response there. Why? Because it has the least bass, and therefore, it is further away from the Moller graphs than one of the others. Note that some go over 9dB difference, and there is some rounding in those, instead of the slope.

I hope you can see my reasoning, and a re interested in this too.
Let me be perfectly clear: It is my contention that people have been mislead by dodgy measurement practise that the LCD-2 and other headphones produce "good bass" based on the square wave, when what it actually produces, at the ear is a slightly rounded square wave compared to a square wave produced by a flat speaker.

That is not to say that the square wave responses we receive are wrong. I think they're pretty close to correct, given the consistency. What I do believe is that Tyll, and others are mixing methods; for frequency response they present headphones as "how they sound compared to a speaker in the field we recorded in", for square wave, I believe they're presenting "This is just what it puts out". If theyre going to do one or the either, they should do it for ALL measurements, and not one. I'd personally prefer RAW responses for all of them because it just makes more sense to me, as I can identify which headphone is designed to which method/standard/field more easily.

I'd really love someone to try and publish the square waves produced by headphones, with their frequency response compensated (via EQ, to save changing the methods of measure).


But to be honest, I haven't really though seriously about this in a long time, so feel free to chime in with corrections/thoughts. I could be completely wrong, and would like to be proven so (to avoid the upset of others). But honestly, I expect that, correctly compensated, we will see that Neutral (i.e. diffuse field, free field etc) headphones produce exactly the same square wave pattern as a speaker that is flat in the same listening conditions (diffuse field, free field). I hope someone does try it, the vindication of being correct, or the humilation of being wrong. I'd still like to see it. Of course true vindication won't be possible unless someone with a flat speaker set (I believe you have nearfield monitors, they're close enough) can demonstrate that they can reproduce, say the square/impulse response (or close enough to it), on their speaker by modifying the frequency balance to be equal to the raw response of a particular headphone.

If you ask me, we are on the cusp of a revolution. Maybe not of the entire measurement practice, but of people at least thinking before they trust anyones graph.


 popcorn
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 06:26:19 AM by ihasmario »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 08:22:37 AM »

It is my contention that people have been mislead by dodgy measurement practise that the LCD-2 and other headphones produce "good bass" based on the square wave, when what it actually produces, at the ear is a slightly rounded square wave compared to a square wave produced by a flat speaker.


Hah.  Funny you mention this because we have discussed square waves as a potential BS measurement when trying to correlate what we were hearing w/ present data available.  I think you have said a lot of what purrin has been thinking on the matter but hasn't really wanted to go there yet due to the amount effort required to swim upstream on the matter.  The amount of times I have been able to trip up an LCD's bass response w/ my test tracks simply didn't correlate to the perfection I've seen rendered in various data sets.
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ihasmario

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 08:36:02 AM »

Funnily enough, I started investigating when I heard the LCd-2s round, heavy sound.

Nice to hear at first (after the wtf no treble phase) but I wouldn't (and didn't) buy it
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 08:38:35 AM by ihasmario »
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Marvey

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »

Square waves are the sum of odd order harmonics with less and less influence for each successive harmonic. By the 9th harmonic, the influence is minimal. The reason LCD2/3 have nice square waves at 50Hz is because it measures flat from 50Hz to 450Hz (9x50) and even beyond to 1kHz or more.

Mathematically, you can calculate with reasonable accuracy the shape of a square wave from frequency response, but not necessarily the other way!

For example, a 50Hz square wave will tell us what is going on at 150Hz, 250Hz(somewhat), 350Hz (a little bit), and 450Hz (very little). However it will tell us jack shit at 100Hz, 200Hz, 300Hz, because those signals are not even part of a square wave. Although it should be noted that we will be able to see distortions and ringing.

In regards to the LCD2, people have different opinions of what good bass means - good square wave and all. And even then, at what frequencies do we examine the square wave? 20Hz, 50Hz, 75Hz, 200Hz?

I'll explore the SQ thing if I have time (which means next winter at earliest or never), but honestly we should be using the right visualizations in the first place to correlate measurements with sound: The trifecta of 1) FR; 2) CSD; 3) Distortion (of which there are many ways to visualize this.)

BTW. I didn't not invent this "trifecta" shit either. JA of Stereophile has been doing two of them (FR+CSD) for quite some time now. Zaph (www.zaphaudio.com) has been doing all three. And Mark K (http://www.audioheuristics.org/) has concentrated a lot of non-linear distortion measurements.

Square waves or step responses are useful for me as a speaker builder for one thing: time aligning drivers / crossovers.

But yeah, the whole LCD2 thing was what inspired to me present other sets of data. Too many people masturbating to those LCD2 measurements. I'll see if I can dig up a square wave or two for other headphones.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 07:06:48 PM by purrin »
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anetode

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 08:38:17 PM »

I like to play a game with Tyll's measurements where I try to guess what the square waves will look like from the slope changes in the FR. The resulting amusement justifies their inclusion.
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ihasmario

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2012, 02:37:35 AM »

The reason LCD2/3 have nice square waves at 50Hz is because it measures flat from 50Hz to 450Hz (9x50) and even beyond to 1kHz or more.

Could you please look at the HE6 graph?

The square wave is measured, heavily sloped as though there is an excess of treble, when the bass from 50 to even the 10th harmonic is qutie flat - in fact, there is more bass, and less of the other frequencies.

When taken 50-20k, the only thing I can see that the LCD-2 has that the HE6 doesn't is a roll-off of about 10db in the treble If what you say is correct (it definitely seems correct), then is it safe to say that these measurements are just wrong?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 02:44:57 AM by ihasmario »
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Marvey

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 04:13:49 AM »

Interesting. Just looked at LCD2 and LCD3 IF square waves graphs, and LCD2 actually has a better square wave than LCD3! LOL, I think this is why I never gave SWs that much thought nor cared that much about them.

I've got HE400s on hand which have similar SW measurement attributes on Tyll's data sheet  to the HE6. Will take a quick look with HE400. BRB.
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ultrabike

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Re: Different Stuff
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 04:36:56 AM »

What is not shown at IF is the FR phase of the headphone which can mishappen a square wave. I had an exchange with xnor at HF that got me motivated to write some code:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/612665/how-far-can-eq-really-go-towards-truly-equalizing-headphones/75#post_8455637

At the bottom of the code there are a set of plots related to 3 different filters: A 5th order Butterworth IIR, a 5th order Chevyshev, and a windowed-based (Hamming) linear phase FIR. Shown are the FR magnitude response of the 3 filters which are flat from 200Hz and above. Only the linear phase filter lets the 300Hz square wave through virtually untouched. The rest look rolled off.

The square wave high frequencies are not absent, they are just linearly re-combined with it's low frequencies with a modified phase due to the filter FR phase.

EDIT: I also agree with Purrin regarding the questionable value of the square wave response. Square waves have no frequency components bellow their fundamental and only contain odd harmonics with attenuated gain (as a function of frequency.) Compound the problem by the phase response signature imparted by the headphone... Difficult to read. The impulse response and it's frequency domain dual, the frequency response are much more valuable IME.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 05:03:43 AM by ultrabike »
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