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Author Topic: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC  (Read 7028 times)

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Armaegis

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2015, 03:56:24 AM »
I'd like to hear thoughts on transformer coupled amp outputs. Yay/nay? Could I take a regular high quality single ended amp, wire up an appropriately spec'd* 1:1 transformer at the end and be able to drive my headphones "balanced"?

*I'm sure this isn't the simplest thing
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Anaxilus

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2015, 04:06:18 AM »
Quote from: Armaegis on April 16, 2015, 03:56:24 AM
I'd like to hear thoughts on transformer coupled amp outputs. Yay/nay? Could I take a regular high quality single ended amp, wire up an appropriately spec'd* 1:1 transformer at the end and be able to drive my headphones "balanced"?

*I'm sure this isn't the simplest thing

I think basically yes. However, adding transformers adds a whole other can of worms that might make SE/balanced a moot point if done poorly and likely cheaply. ToTL transformers simply can NOT be made cheap. If you are at the point of worrying about audible performance benefits from balanced versus SE outputs, you'll be spending a good chuck to make sure you aren't adding some other coloration in it's place that;s likely worse.
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zerodeefex

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2015, 04:09:55 AM »
Quote from: purr1n on April 16, 2015, 01:13:19 AM
No prob on reviving this thread. I think this warrants additional discussion. There is balanced / differential signaling (the real definition of balanced) and balanced-bridged-amping. Separate things. I'm coming to the conclusion that the balanced-bridge-amping is not the end all be all. Depends upon topology of course.

One thing that's bugged me is that some people, especially at the summit-fi level, think "balanced" amp automatically means better. More discussion later on this. I had an interesting discussion with Craig on this in regards the headphones and the EC balanced output amps.

There was a huge debate about this on an internal list. I mean, the SE Klone sounds better than the balanced out of the GSX MK2 and balanced Dynahi to me. I'd take it over many, many of the summit fi offerings.
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OJneg

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2015, 04:11:50 AM »
Quote from: Armaegis on April 16, 2015, 03:56:24 AM
I'd like to hear thoughts on transformer coupled amp outputs. Yay/nay? Could I take a regular high quality single ended amp, wire up an appropriately spec'd* 1:1 transformer at the end and be able to drive my headphones "balanced"?

*I'm sure this isn't the simplest thing

Like Anax said:

$$$$$$$

That also sounds like a great way to gimp a good performing solid-state amp in my book. I think McIntosh does weird stuff like that with auto-former coupled outputs
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Armaegis

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2015, 04:35:04 AM »
I did once convince a guy on the HE-6 threads to try these autoformers on his monoblocks: http://www.zeroimpedance.com/zeroimpedance_014.htm

...but he didn't like the results.  :P
(I still suspect he didn't wire 'em up properly)
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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin

Marvey

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2015, 04:51:00 AM »
Quote from: Armaegis on April 16, 2015, 03:56:24 AM
I'd like to hear thoughts on transformer coupled amp outputs. Yay/nay? Could I take a regular high quality single ended amp, wire up an appropriately spec'd* 1:1 transformer at the end and be able to drive my headphones "balanced"?

*I'm sure this isn't the simplest thing

It's possible. A transformer that is really tightly coupled. Black arts winding techniques. Actually looking into this right now so can't say more. Only reason I can say is because it would be so insane to do. Don't mind if other people try first. It would need to be good enough that the benefits (small) outweigh the negatives.

I think you guys already know this, but it would be good to remind folks that "balanced" <> two separate amps driving differential signals. Balanced simply means differential signaling.

Output from a transformer to headphones is inherently balanced, but the amp can be single ended, as in the case with SE tube designs.

It can be argued that balanced bridged via two amps with one amp running the signal inverted is wasteful of resources. (You are duplicating the parts for an entire second amp).  One should be better off by making the SE design more powerful than can making a second amp just to run it bridged. However, there are cases where this makes sense. In cars, the bridged amp approach works well because of low voltage power supply. Bridging allows you to easily double the voltage swing. Bridging also allows use of DACs with true balanced outputs. Whether the advantage of making full use of a DAC's true balanced output (vs SE output) outweighs the increased distortion and increased output Z from bridging is a matter of debate. Yes, bridged amps have higher distortion and less control over the transducer.

The worst situation is SE into a bridged amp. You'd need a phase splitter. Possible yuck depending upon how the phase splitter is implemented.

For for balanced vs SE. from say the EC Balancing Act: for Grados, it doesn't matter - dont waste time and/or money re-terminating. AD2000, maybe some minor improvement, but not worthwhile. HD800, yes definitely a subtle improvement. LCD2, maybe somewhere between AD2000 and H800.

For the balanced input, the EC BA uses those tiny Cinemag transformers to take from balanced input to SE (BA is a single-ended amp, but with balanced inputs and outputs). When I owned the BA, I actually preferred the SE input from the PWD2 DAC to the BA. In this case, the purity of the signal chain from the SE output of the PWD2 outweighed any advantages of the balanced line which had to go through transformers. Maybe higher grade transformers would have given the BA balanced inputs an advantage, but stuff like that can increase costs by several hundred.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. Bridged stuff sells because it's "bettar", even though no one really knows why it's bettar. It's cool to have extra fancy connectors and all.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 05:14:41 AM by purr1n »
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OJneg

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2015, 08:01:37 AM »
At the risk of further confusing anyone who might be trying to follow. The key to understanding is knowing where the signal(s) are with relation to ground.

Input stages

Single-ended input, single-ended output



Differential input, differential output



Differential input, single-ended output




Imagine a common emitter/source/cathode on the right (unbalanced) side for this one

Output Stages

Single-ended input, single-ended output


Class A


Class AB, pushpull

Differential input, differential output


This is the basic form of the famed Circlotron circuit.


The OG Circlotron.

Single-ended input, differential output


Classic SET with direct feed

-------------------------

There is an important distinction between balanced and fully differential signal paths; the terms are not interchangeable.
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Solderdude

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2015, 09:58:51 AM »
The class-AB drawing is actually a class-B output stage.

The schematic below is Class-AB


« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 02:35:46 PM by Solderdude »
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RexAeterna

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2015, 11:42:55 AM »
Quote from: OJneg on April 16, 2015, 04:11:50 AM
Like Anax said:

$$$$$$$

That also sounds like a great way to gimp a good performing solid-state amp in my book. I think McIntosh does weird stuff like that with auto-former coupled outputs

McIntosh does use autoformers for output impedance matching. Some people call it a cheat and others don't. Opinions are everywhere. That is one reason though why output power in McIntosh amps is same across all loads and no issues with very low impedance reactive loads cause the autoformers used allows to see any speaker as an 8ohm nominal load. Only experience I had with McIntosh gear is their insanely expensive mc601 8000 dollar mono blocks and to be honest I wasn't impressed By the performance especially ridiculous boutique prices they retail for.
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OJneg

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Re: Differences between balanced vs single ended headphone/amp/DAC
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2015, 02:08:39 PM »
Quote from: Solderdude on April 16, 2015, 09:58:51 AM
The class-AB drawing is actually a class-B output stage.

The schematic below is Class-AB


Edit: Hit wrong key


As with the other examples shown, the biasing mechanisms are not explicitly show but rather implied.
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