Topic: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble? (Read 5089 times)

rhythmdevils · « **on:** August 08, 2012, 09:58:12 PM »

From a discussion in the shoutbox. (Read from bottom to top)

MuppetFace: Either of those reasons can be subsumed under the heading of "corporate BS"

catscratch: I think it's simpler than that - the T1 sells, so they do more of that kind of sound. It's just consumer pandering and taking no risks when you already have something that works. Plus the whole "tuned for classical music thing."

rhythmdevils: Good point MF. I think the best explanation is the big companies being lazy, treble peaks is what you get when you don't do enough R&D. I've experienced that first hand

rhythmdevils: The fact that IEM's are so different makes it hard to blame consumers for being inexperienced.

MuppetFace: Well, another thing to consider is that a lot of these flatter or warmer signatures are being produced by smaller companies. Less BS and corporate pandering in those cases. With IEMs, there are far more of these small start up companies, especially with CIEMs these days, and in comparison the full-sized headphone market has much fewer of these small companies (Audez'e, HiFiman)

rhythmdevils: I'd like to say it's because of the multiple drivers, but single driver IEM's are more neutral too

Tari: Perhaps that's due to most of those same IEM's being marketed to professional musicians who need neutrality as much as audiophiles. That or perhaps the dearth of measurements on IEM's means more people assuming something treble/bass/whatever heavy is neutral and others won't really challenge them.

MuppetFace: Seems to me like neutral sound signatures in audiophile products are far more common in the IEM market compared to the full-sized headphone market these days.

rhythmdevils: You'd think some of them would realize it would be a lot easier to sell their phones if they went for neutral/warm since they'd have way less competition. I can't imagine it would be that hard to make a phone better than the HD650 with the same sound sig. Hifiman figured that out recently and it's clearly been successful.

rhythmdevils: It's really just bad business when it comes down to it. You have a market saturated with a certain sound, and companies just keep trying to compete with everyone else for those who like that sound. Leaving a completely untapped market for neutral/warm left to HD650 and Audeze

MuppetFace: Seems "Tesla" has become a synonym for "ear splitting." Poor Tesla deserves better.

Tari: Maybe Beyer feels baby-boomers (whose hearing in the highs is often on the way out) are the main target demographic for expensive German headphones. Headphones with super-accentuated highs may be the only highs they can hear

MuppetFace: So the Beyerdyanmic T90 is out now. Reading some impressions... "bit more treble emphasis and recessed mids compared to T1" ..... oh God. What's wrong with companies?

MomijiTMO · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2012, 10:13:36 PM »

So many headphones have peaky treble because the average consumer mistakes the piercing treble for clarity. Show any noob a K701 and a HD650 and most will favour the AKG. Give the same phones to a musician or your not so average Head-Fier and they will take the HD650.

grev · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:16:23 AM »

To generalise a bit... Gralessandros; Beyers DT open headphones; Beyer Teslas; AKGs...

So does that mean those Beats and Soul headphones are better than these big companies?

The reason(s) are more elusive... for example, I have no idea why Sennheiser made the good HD650 and then change the characteristics with the 700 and 800, are they going with the general consensus or something else?

MuppetFace · « **Reply #3 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:43:11 AM »

Quote from: grev on August 09, 2012, 12:16:23 AM

To generalise a bit... Gralessandros; Beyers DT open headphones; Beyer Teslas; AKGs...

So does that mean those Beats and Soul headphones are better than these big companies?

The reason(s) are more elusive... for example, I have no idea why Sennheiser made the good HD650 and then change the characteristics with the 700 and 800, are they going with the general consensus or something else?

I think it largely has to do with consumer expectations and target demographics. Something going for the "urban lifestyle" image can be mush, so long as the bass is boomy enough. On the other hand it seems as though many an audiophile these days puts hyper detail fixation and an impressive soundstage above all else. Brighter, treble-happy headphones trick the brain into thinking more detail is there, as detail is emphasized in those types of signatures. I think we saw this fixation taken to its most extreme in the Edition 10. Ultrasone simply carried the stereotype into the realm of pure absurdity, and in that sense the Edition 10 is sort of a parody of the "ultimate audiophile headphone."

There's also a rising trend of trying to cater to both of these demographics --- the basshead and the detail mongering audiophile --- with headphones like Denons both old and especially new (their "music maniac" which is some weird demonic amalgamation of "lifestyle" and "reference listening"). Also seen in John Grado's PS series.

rhythmdevils · « **Reply #4 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:49:51 AM »

From my own limited experience trying to make good sounding headphones, I think there's generally a process that goes like this when designing a headphone, as you devote more time and R&D into perfecting it. These are the steps I've gone through when damping orthos. Most stock orthos are at step 1 despite having a well engineered driver. Goes to show how important damping/enclosure is for orthos.

Makes Noise. Rainbow FR that's wonky, uneven, resonant, rolled off on both ends, severely lacking in clarity, maybe lots of distortion. Many 70's dynamics are like this. And so are lots of cheap phones today.
Moar Clarity. Improve clarity by increasing driver speed and extension and reducing distortion maybe, but as you bring up the speed and treble you wind up with peaky response and still have resonances that are now aggravated by the peaky FR. Tesla anyone?
Balance. A more holistic approach- reduce resonance and FR peaks, but you lose clarity in the process as you maybe go too far to eliminate peaks. The HD650 is at this level. Maybe HE400 as well.
Refinement. Reduce resonance and flatten FR even further while maintaining clarity. This is very difficult to achieve- clarity without peaky response, it's the level reached by very few- stax, maybe some of the orthos, future orthos will hopefully be here as well

Then distortion is probably a factor in there too, but I have no experience with that. Most headphones stop at step 2, they get lots of clarity for that modern "hifi" resolving/audiophile sound that people are impressed by coming from ibuds or BOSE etc. It's just enough to wow you at the store. But they don't continue on past the goal of clarity.

Question is why do IEM's seem to make it through more R&D. I don't think the consumer demand is different enough to make up the huge difference. Musicians buy full size headphones too. And musicians don't care about fidelity that much IME at least not when listening to music. I think Muppetface made a good point about smaller companies being driven by ideals and pride more than the bigger companies which are at this point more profit oriented. They stop at 2 with a sound that will wow people with detail, and then invest in advertising which is cheaper than continuing on with more R&D.

frenchbat · « **Reply #5 on:** August 09, 2012, 02:19:28 AM »

I think it's Purrin that was suggesting some german manufacturers were maybe designing with a Zout of 120Ohms in mind. That could explain some of the treble peaks.

Another possibility is that few audio gear is actually flat until 20kHz, which means that most people wouldn't even realize there's a treble peak in the first place. I know my former headamp was rolled-off in the highs, and my K702 treble peak only became obvious once I received my DAC1.

donunus · « **Reply #6 on:** August 09, 2012, 03:32:44 AM »

Isn't it just possible that the big manufacturers just don't know what sound they exactly want and are just trying new things all the time? Then while they are trying new things, they just release a bunch of bright and crispy things to fool a certain group of audiophiles that think that bright means detailed

Deep Funk · « **Reply #7 on:** August 09, 2012, 07:29:25 AM »

Bright is fun in the beginning. Thing is high midrange peaks and treble peaks tend to become annoying in the long term. That's why I choose the K500 in the end.

AKG sometimes tends to get the frequency response just right with just enough 'energy' in the high midrange and treble area without loosing the smooth and effortless presentation. The K240 DF is such a headphone. Sennheiser with the HD250 II just found the right balance.

"Bright means detailed", good grief that implies low volume listening for preserving your own hearing...

donunus · « **Reply #8 on:** August 09, 2012, 07:56:43 AM »

Quote from: Deep Funk on August 09, 2012, 07:29:25 AM

"Bright means detailed", good grief that implies low volume listening for preserving your own hearing...

whoops, edited my post to audiophiles that think that bright means detailed

MuppetFace · « **Reply #9 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:07:31 PM »

I just have a hard time buying it's the result of naivety or not knowing what they're doing. I mean, we're talking about Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic here. They have some of the world's finest testing equipment, engineering facilities, and designers in the world at their disposal.

And they STILL make stuff that sounds like shit.

Because that's what Joe Blow audiophile buys.

Author Topic: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble? (Read 5089 times)

rhythmdevils

Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

MomijiTMO

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

grev

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

MuppetFace

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

rhythmdevils

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

frenchbat

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

donunus

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

Deep Funk

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

donunus

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

MuppetFace

Re: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble?

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Author Topic: Why do so many headphones have peaky treble? (Read 5089 times)

MomijiTMO