Topic: Let's Have A Honest Frank Discussion About Home Rigs (Read 6662 times)

DigitalFreak · « **on:** July 26, 2012, 06:07:21 AM »

Ok guys, as you can all guess I have an ulterior motive for starting this thread. I do think there is some good DAC/amps out there and whether they're expensive or not they might just be worth the money. I'm not going to make a fool of myself and say this or that 1000 2000 3000 whatever dollar amp is worth or not worth the price because it would be ignorant of me to say something like that without first having a chance to hear it for myself. That being said I'm not going to mince words, I for the most part think and suspect there's a lot of overpriced garbage on the market.

As you all know NwAvGuy decided to make a statement awhile back and put the O2 where his mouth was and in doing so he shook things up in the hobby. I haven't heard the O2 myself but from what I've researched I'm left with the impression it's an awesome little piece of kit that brings a lot to the table for the money spent. What I've read about it thus far has so impressed me I've added the O2 with a built in ODAC add on to my short list of perspective buys for next year. Next year should be a big year for me as far as this hobby is concerned. The plan is to finally get my first real home audio rig and start looking into grabbing some real quality cans.

Let's get to the point of why I started this thread. I did a little looking around on this site and it's safe to say we have some very knowledgeable people on here who have been blessed enough to hear various gear from various price ranges and have been involved long enough in the hobby to know what can be considered a good buy and what can be considerd overpriced BS. This is your opportunity ladies and gentlemen to speak out and say exactly what you want and throw in your 2 cents on what you consider real gear and what you consider highway robbery and why.

The only 2 things I ask from posters on this thread is the following:

1) No runaway fan boy/girl garbage. It's alright to really love a piece of gear you have but please don't call others out because they don't see eye to eye with your views. In short, no need to act like a jerk.

2) I'm far from a puritan and I'm as guilty as the next guy for colorful language but please don't run around on the thread dropping F bombs for the sake of dropping F bombs. I'm not saying anyone should go out of their way to censor themselves. If you think something is crap then by all means come out and say it's shit. I'm just asking not to be silly about it in the way you express your view.

Let's see if this thread blossoms into an informative thread that's a breath of fresh air to read. Post away people. I for one am curious concerning others views on the subject.

MomijiTMO · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2012, 09:52:47 AM »

I haven't been in the hobby for decades, nor have I dropped several grand on one piece of gear and I am not knowledgeable in audio engineering. I have had the opportunity to listen to some nice amps and DACs and felt that they were a level or two above my current set up. I heard a ECBA + PBD MPS-5 SACD at one meet. It should be recommended to everyone to go to meets and listen before shunning 'expensive' amps or DACs. It's funny how few people discount the top tier headphones yet people are quick to say sources or amps don't matter or are all the same (after a certain level).

The ECBA is something I think is worth it. As for the player I heard... it's not something I can afford right now and that might influence my decision to say it isn't worth it.

DaveBSC · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2012, 01:50:21 PM »

I think the little Auraliti PK90 USB represents a serious value as a source. I'm planning to pick one up soon to try it out. Normally I'm dubious about pre-built computers, but I would definitely struggle to build a comparable machine for less. I'm sure they get a volume discount on the SoTM card, but assuming I had to pay retail for one, I might be able to do it myself for maybe $100 less (and would have to load and configure VortexBox myself).

I'd love to do a shootout between the Anedio D2 and the Calyx DAC, which I think are the premier DACs right now under $3K. Both have some design compromises, but you'd probably have to spend $5K+ to thoroughly outperform either one of them.

Sforza · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2012, 03:33:38 PM »

Just wanted to say that I look forward to the discussions on this thread. Dave always seems to come up with responses that mention really interesting products by companies I've never heard of before, like the amps on that other thread.

My dac is a centrance dacport lx, and while it does the job well enough (it sounds neutral) I'm sure there are lots of better sounding gear out there.

MuppetFace · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2012, 04:11:50 PM »

Calyx intrigues me, as I've heard some positive things about their top models. I almost went with the 24/192 a few months back but got the Onkyo DAC-1000 instead as there was a lead time of a few months buying directly from Calyx at the time. I'm kind of iffy on the FEMTO though. The 24/192 would still be at the top of my list of considerations if I want to spend around $2000-4000 USD on a DAC, along with the NAD M51 and the Perfect Wave MKII. For $1000 I'd recommend the Onkyo DAC-1000. My instincts tell me the Schiit Gungnir will be good too.

As far as amps go I think Eddie Current is one of the better names out there. The Super 7 is a great value, and I think even the Balancing Act is a good value compared to stuff like the Apex Pinnacle. I also like what Donald North Audio is doing. For me personally, those two along with Justin's HeadAmp forms a triad of amp-y goodness. While I haven't heard anything from the newer Apex line at TTVJ, I think Pete Millet's stuff is usually great too. Then for portable amps Leckerton is where it's at as far as I'm concerned.

Uh... what else? For DAPs I'm still partial to my Sony A865 Walkman, and I'd like to try the Z1070 sometime. The Sansa Clip is still a pretty great value for money in terms of SQ (not UI by any means). I have the iBasso DX100, and while the sound quality does impress me, overall I think it's a colossal waste of money considering its usability issues make me want to ignore it most of the time.

For turntables I like VPI's stuff.

Tari · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2012, 05:03:01 PM »

I think MF mentioned most of the "good" names out there for commercial headphone amp builders:

Craig (EC), Justin (Headamp), Pete (currently Apex), Donald (DNA), Alex (Cavalli)

Haven't tried the Schiit midrange offerings yet, could very well be awesome.

DAC's are a much more polluted field simply because the whole speaker market is churning them out and the options seem endless. "Pro" Dac's are a great way to start, (Lavry, Benchmark, etc) and are available for a pittance on the secondhand classifieds of Gearslutz. You may never feel the need to upgrade from them - if you do feel the insatiable urge to try something else higher up the (expense) food chain, first try out DAC's with return policies (usually 30 days), dealers with at-home demos, or DAC's that don't lose too much on the market, as DAC upgraders (myself included) seem to burn through a few different units before settling on one (or two in my case) they can live with. The "worth the money" debate with DAC's in particular is completely subjective. Try not to buy one that loses half it's value the minute you open the box.

Haven't tried the FEMTO yet, but my experience with the 24/192 was good looks, ease-of-use, average sound for the price. The reason I wouldn't buy from them is they're in the Far East and my trying to contact them from America was one of the most frustrating situations I've had recently. (Their distributor, northwoods, is ok but not helpful in some situations) I've got US and Candian DAC's now and the support is excellent.

DaveBSC · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:24:30 AM »

I've never understood the appeal of the Benchmark DAC. The components are nothing special, and to me it sounds like the worst aspects of the Krell sound - all the warmth of Clorox bleach.

The Calyx DAC is probably susceptible to noise from the source. I'm not entirely sure how their USB input is set up, but since the DAC can be completely powered by the Vbus line, that ground noise is going to work its way in. The CLPS is also odd, they went to the trouble of designing a good power supply and then used the same piece of 10 cent, unshielded micro-gauge copper for the DC cable as the wall-wart?

At some point I need to go back to Boulder so I can listen to PS Audio's reference system again. I was there years ago when they had recently introduced their gaincell amps. Their reference system at that time was an old modified Sony DVD player of some sort and a GCC integrated driving a pair of Avalon Eidolons and a Martin Logan Descent subwoofer. I thought the system sounded lousy, but I was too polite to say so, they had just given me a free tour after all. Now I'm sure it's all Perfect Wave stuff, and Paul had Arnie Nudell build him a custom speaker which is probably amazing if his work at Infinity and Genesis is anything to go by. That old system still gives me pause about PS Audio products though.

I know there's a big difference between brands like Vitus or BAlabo or Karan and PS Audio, but still. It's one thing to not sound that great in a hotel room. It's another for your company's own reference room to be yawn inducing.

I really want to see a lot more on the design of the Femto before I'd be willing to part with that much cash for one. Calyx is big on their measurement figures, not so big on telling you what's actually in the soup. With so many high-performance DACs available in the $5-7K range like the Overdrive and Pandora, I need more convincing.

For DAPs I'm definitely looking forward to the HM-901. My 801 is still my go to portable for use with headphones over $150.

Turntables, for me it's gotta be Basis. Just awesome. Most VPI and AVID tables are also very nice, but there's just something extra special about Basis.

DigitalFreak · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2012, 05:36:58 AM »

Good to see my first thread on here has garnered a little interest. Alright my turn, as far as DAP's are concerned I'm what people would class the helpless iPod head. Although I think they sound rather meh I love the ease of use of my ipod touches UI and the 160 gig of storage space of my iPod classic. I have three mobile amps I use with my iPods a opamp rollable CMoy that was constructed by a buddy, a Leckerton UHA-4 with opamp AD8610, and a ALO RX MKII. Out of the three the ALO amp just edges out my UHA-4 but I plan to get the UHA-6 MKII in the near future. I listened to a couple of iBasso amps and although I thought they were ok they didn't really wow me. Traditionally I've always been a Sony fan going back to the cassette walkman days but Apple won me over. That being said I want to one day see what the new Z Player sounds like and would like nothing better then to see a Sony player knock Apple off it's DAP throne.

Right now I have no home rig but I intend to change that sometime next year. The shortlist thus far I guess you can say is all over the map. I don't mind a 2 piece setup but would prefer a all in one box due to space being at a premium. Thus far I've gotten a list made of of makers such as JDSLabs O2+ODAC combo, or the Burson 160D. If I was to go with a two piece setup the DAC's I'm thinking of going with would be the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC, the Burson DA 160 DAC or the Schiit Bifrost DAC. Amp wise I'm leaning towards the following Burson HA 160, or the Schiit Asgard. I'm curious about the Little Dot amps but I've read some mixed reviews here and there and I've shyed away from them. The same would go for AudioGD.

@MuppetFace
Tell me more about your Onkyo DAC. What about it makes it a keeper for you?

DaveBSC · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:22:30 PM »

I should also add that the presence of a Martin Logan subwoofer was more than a little disconcerting. I couldn't help but point out how flabby, one-note, tubby, and directional the bass response was. The guy there apologized and said that one of their Descents was out somewhere else and its normally better with two in the system, but come on, dude. Two turds instead of one does not suddenly become Filet Mignon.

anetode · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2012, 08:26:24 PM »

Re: Let's Have A Honest Frank Discussion About Home Rigs

Now son, please sit down. It's time you and me had a serious conversation about what you're going to do with your life regarding your audio rig. I know that it might be a little difficult for you to understand the importance of these purchasing decisions, but believe me when I say that someday you will thank me for this advice.

Focus on functionality. What do you want? I think that ergonomics play a rather large and underappreciated role in product selection. If you're like me you're wont to put up with inconvenient gear that needs regular maintenance. I'm fine with complexity of design only when considering whether the implementation is efficient.

For example, I have a Lavry DA11. It was quite an investment for me but it paid off (note that prior to getting into high end I spent a decade depending on sound cards). It's a purely utilitarian piece, but it's excellent once you learn how to quickly manipulate the tactile controls. Adjusting volume or source is now a muscle memory and it feels damn good. Another plus is the volume. After the DA11 I never want to use another Alps-like pot again. After owning the Woo Audio WA22 I also grew to hate the 24-step rotary resistor volume control for the coarseness between steps. I'd rather buy equipment with a large range of modest volume adjustments (at least by 1db).

That was more of an aside. As for recommending specific gear, I'd suggest buying products from pro audio companies. There's less crap to wade through in their ad copy and there's usually enough stir on varied forums to substantiate the performance of their equipment.

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Author Topic: Let's Have A Honest Frank Discussion About Home Rigs (Read 6662 times)

MomijiTMO