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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)  (Read 158892 times)

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shipsupt

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #990 on: July 28, 2013, 09:03:44 AM »

I was looking for this M3 Lightweight yesterday and couldn't find it.  I actually saw one of these cars in person years ago, very cool "production" car.  Around the time they were doing thinner glass, not sure if they did it in this model, and they were bonding the front and rear windows to the chassis to make things stiffer.

http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/models/m3_ltw.htm
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

DaveBSC

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #991 on: July 29, 2013, 05:47:34 AM »

Which IS350 F-sport?  2013 or 2014?  Plus w/ Lexus, there is 'off' and then there is 'OFF'. 

Getting back to BMW.  I think renaming the 3 series a 4, tells you what you need to know.  Being that some people need to get fired.

The new one. From what I've read, with the stability control "off" as opposed to double extra secret "OFF off," it's nearly impossible to get the car sideways because the nanny still cuts in and hammers the brakes, which seems to miss the point. As Harris said, if you can't play with the back of the car, why not just buy an Audi?

I'm curious to see how the Q50 turns out. This segment is a lot more open than it used to be, so there's definitely more space for them. Infiniti has really struggled with getting the finer details right as far as throttle and brake feel and suspension calibration, but supposedly they are working on that. The interior is fine, if nothing special which has also long been an Infiniti weak spot. Lexus deserves some credit for having the balls to do a full on baby LFA interior including the IP in the F-Sport version, though I wonder if it will turn off more conservative buyers. The IS300 was also ballsy and nobody bought one.

The other thing that Infiniti needs is the Mercedes engine that's supposed to be coming. They've kept up with the competition by making the VQ bigger and bigger, but it just doesn't have the refinement for this class. The Benz twin turbo 3.0L "400" engine in the Q50 would change that.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #992 on: July 29, 2013, 04:50:41 PM »

That's something Toyota has had to deal with a few times.  People complain there are bland and boring, they do something different that isn't and it doesn't sell.  It's partly their own shitty marketing. 

Renault/Infinity is using MB engines?  3.0 V6?? Why would the company that makes the GTR's VQ twin turbo V6 and competes against MB in F1 ever uses a MB engine unless it was a big diesel?  Honestly, I could get 330hp slapping a couple turbos on any 20 year old 3.0.  Better be ULEV and get 30+MPG or at least make espressos. 
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DaveBSC

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #993 on: July 29, 2013, 08:01:11 PM »

Renault/Infinity is using MB engines?  3.0 V6?? Why would the company that makes the GTR's VQ twin turbo V6 and competes against MB in F1 ever uses a MB engine unless it was a big diesel?  Honestly, I could get 330hp slapping a couple turbos on any 20 year old 3.0.  Better be ULEV and get 30+MPG or at least make espressos.

That's the rumor. If the Q50 and whatever the hell the M is called now do get MB's upcoming 3.0L TT with the same default tune, the horsepower wouldn't move much but the torque would jump by about 80ft.lbs which is significant, well more than BMW's N55 turbo I6 and more than Audi's supercharged V6, though their 3.0"T" is underrated a bit. The VQ37 is getting pretty old, and at the top of the rev range the sound is rather unpleasant. They've gotta do something with that. One thing that may hint that the MB engine is coming is changing all of their cars names. Infiniti numbers have always designated engine displacement, and car companies with the exception of VW/Audi generally don't like to advertise that they've made their new engines smaller. That's why there was never a Q41, even though the car was using a 4.1L V8 for a few years.

Another possibility is that they will keep the VQ37 at the top, and MB will supply them with a turbo four to compete with the 328i and A4. The IS250 is a bit of a joke, but the G25 was a laughing stock, and a complete bomb. I think it lasted something like two years on the market.
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catscratch

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #994 on: July 29, 2013, 09:45:06 PM »

As somebody that actually owned a VQ engine instead of just reading about them (mind you that was a VQ35 in a G35) I'll submit that the hoarseness was at the bottom of the rev range, not the top. Between 4k and 6k it was pretty much fine. The torque characteristics weren't great with not much going on below 3.5k, or so it felt. I wonder if being an extremely oversquare engine had anything to do with that. Either way I liked the G35 a lot for what it was, which is an entry-level sport-luxury car instead of a straight up sports car.

I agree that BMW has lost its way. The company that made the E90 335 does not feel like the same company that made the X3. I've yet to drive any of the latest 3s and 5s. I also agree that all signs point to marketing and bean counters heading the design instead of the engineers. Lastly, I once again agree that BMW screwing up leaves a lot of vacuum in the segment, and I'm certain someone will step in and take over. Though I'm guessing emissions and economy regulations have as much to do with BMW's change of direction as any management upheavals that we may or may not know about.

The new Infinitis have steering-by-wire systems, and I'm not going to be trusting my life to those, even if that trust is irrational. I like to keep cars around for a long time, and the thought of a drive by wire system in a 12 year old rustbucket is not comforting nor would be good for its resale value. Infiniti's new focus on driver assist technology, as well as their restructuring of the model lineup, also points to marketing taking more of a hand in vehicle design. I don't see them becoming the new de-facto driver's car in the segment any time soon. Lexus isn't on my plate either for the simple fact that they don't offer a manual gearbox. The ATS/CTS are interesting, but I'm always wary of American publications being overzealous in supporting American cars, and I'll have to actually spend some hands-on time with one to see if the chassis is as good as they claim. That is, if I can even tell.

Not having any mechanical knowledge whatsoever, I have to ask... what's the potential for NA tuning for the BRZ/FRS? I generally don't like forced-induction engines for the lousy throttle response, and even the N54/N55 feel less responsive than the J32A2 in my Acura. Which, incidentally, is a wonderful engine.
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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #995 on: July 29, 2013, 11:42:03 PM »

On the NA front, two questions need answering.

1-What fuel?  91/93, E85, E50, 110?
2-I assume you mean a stock motor?  Any intake/exhaust mods or all stock?  I believe w/ a stock NA motor, people have gotten a smidge over or under for whp compared to bhp which isn't too shabby.  So maybe 190-210 whp ish?  It's near impossible to hit the 240bhp in the S2000 w/o digging into the FA20 and getting more serious.

You shouldn't be having throttle issues w/ a screw/roots type supercharger.  That's the point and why they are used in professional drag racing.  If you have anything that looks like a hair dryer or snail shell in the engine bay you are going to have a degree of lag w/o an electric motor pre-spooling it.  It's inherent to how they build boost and are driven off the exhaust.  In the positive displacement supercharger has a flat torque curve it should be pretty instant unless the intake plumbing is long and/or convoluted.  This is a concern for me w/ the Innovate SC kit.  I wish the butterfly was like stock using a short/direct feed to the airbox instead of running around the side to the back which is why the curve slopes a bit down low.  Or you get a hood scoop and ram air through the top.  Another problem is balancing and managing air volume versus air flow and port velocity. <----this is secret sauce/black magic area where engine builders make their bread and butter.

You might like the throttle response of some of the electric superchargers they are homebrewing on the ft86 forum.  This used to be a joke 10-15 years ago, but not anymore.  The testers are breaking tires loose each time they jab the throttle.  If you want ultra sharp and ultra precise throttle for feathering you'll want something w/ ITBs.
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catscratch

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #996 on: July 30, 2013, 12:32:04 AM »

What I mean is bolt-on parts that any competent mechanic can install without being a specialist and needing a full engine rebuild - in other words, things that you can afford on a FRS budget rather than a M3 budget. Definitely using 91, I don't want to sacrifice drivability. The point is to improve midrange torque and add a bit more power, and generally improve the 5-60 and passing times while keeping the character of the engine intact, and without overwhelming the tires/chassis in stock form or changing the feel of the car too much. And, of course, keeping it as durable as a totally stock engine.

This is only a theoretical exercise at this point of course, but for me at least the FRS is desirable as an object, while mostly everything else in the price range isn't. Strangely, that factors a lot in my buying decisions at least...

I've seen some builds with ITBs (though not on the FRS) and yeah, that's ultra sweet. Seems like it would be quite expensive. On the supercharger front, I have little experience that's worth nothing, but I'll take your word for it.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #997 on: July 30, 2013, 03:22:45 AM »

I have seen the torque dip filled out w/ NA tunes and bolt ons from forum dynos.  This is why I almost feel like Toyota put the dip in there for CAFE and to support the aftermarket and future model upgrades.  The problem for 5-60 is that torque will be inherently weak for such an efficient hp centric engine tweaked for 100hp/L NA that's built square (86x86).  Filling in the dip is one thing but getting more torque is another.  Expect to see a rise in torque of about 50% of whatever you gain in hp w/ the FA20.  If you want more push NA, you'll want a stroker or overall increase in displacement which means tearing it apart.  Your best bet and most realistic performance gain for passing will be dropping weight.  I've crunched some numbers for my hypothetical build and a stage one weight drop is around 125lbs, stage 2 180lbs, stage 200-220+ depending on how fat your wallet.  So w/ a MT you could drop the curb weight from anywhere between 2600lbs and 2450-2500lbs.

Plus balancing drops in rotational mass for faster acceleration versus potential loss of torque depending on where you trim pounds.  Likely not a problem if you leave the engine alone.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:56:12 AM by Analixus »
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DaveBSC

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #998 on: July 30, 2013, 09:22:56 AM »

As somebody that actually owned a VQ engine instead of just reading about them (mind you that was a VQ35 in a G35) I'll submit that the hoarseness was at the bottom of the rev range, not the top. Between 4k and 6k it was pretty much fine. The torque characteristics weren't great with not much going on below 3.5k, or so it felt. I wonder if being an extremely oversquare engine had anything to do with that. Either way I liked the G35 a lot for what it was, which is an entry-level sport-luxury car instead of a straight up sports car.

Though I'm guessing emissions and economy regulations have as much to do with BMW's change of direction as any management upheavals that we may or may not know about.

The new Infinitis have steering-by-wire systems, and I'm not going to be trusting my life to those, even if that trust is irrational. I like to keep cars around for a long time, and the thought of a drive by wire system in a 12 year old rustbucket is not comforting nor would be good for its resale value. Infiniti's new focus on driver assist technology, as well as their restructuring of the model lineup, also points to marketing taking more of a hand in vehicle design. I don't see them becoming the new de-facto driver's car in the segment any time soon.

I generally don't like forced-induction engines for the lousy throttle response, and even the N54/N55 feel less responsive than the J32A2 in my Acura. Which, incidentally, is a wonderful engine.

The 3.7L has a different character than the old 3.5. It's less refined overall, and the coarseness is more up top. It's also a bit of a gas hog, and it's still port injected which is pretty dated at this point. Even old man Honda has DI engines now. Infiniti still seems a little confused about what they want. They are trying to dip their toes into more sport focused cars with the "IPL" sub brand, but they were too timid to really do anything with it, so for right now at least it's a lot like Acura's old useless "A-spec" cars. Lexus is definitely further along with F-sport.

Emissions and economy regulations have a lot to do with BMW replacing their beloved NA straight six with a turbo four, but not to do with their new suspension and steering tuning. The tiller in the new cars is number on purpose, so they say, as to filter out "unwanted" feedback. I'm reminded of the 2001 3 series that had a significant boost in power assistance to make parking maneuvers easier. Everybody hated it, so in 2002 they went back to the old calibration. I wouldn't be surprised if they rethink their approach to steering feedback in another year or so. 

I'm not that worried about electric steering from a safety standpoint. Electronic throttles have been around well long enough for there to be plenty of old rust buckets with them, and it doesn't seem to be an issue. The idea of a mechanical throttle linkage now is basically an anachronism. E-brake systems are now nearing about a decade old, and again, no massive, widespread failures. Besides, e-steering is inevitable. Aside from stuff like auto parking which it makes possible, it saves about 1mpg or so, and automakers will take any advantage they can get. The problem seems to be preserving the connection to the tires and the road that you used to get with the best hydraulic systems, something BMW used to be known for. Even Porsche is struggling with it, though the new GT3 is supposedly a big improvement over the standard car.

I should also add, the original Acura NSX had electric steering. That car is now 23 years old, and I haven't heard an y stories about it killing anybody from steering failure. Same with the S2000, another e-steering car. I think you're gonna be ok.

The responsiveness of the N54 and N55 has as much to do with the throttle programming as anything else. Read the more unbiased reviews or forums, since about 2007 or so BMW throttle programming has been awful across the board, NA engines included. For whatever reason they programed the throttle to basically do nothing for about the first 15-20% of travel, and even if you absolutely boot it, there still isn't the immediate response that there should be.

My 2.7T isn't like that at all. The turbos are small and spool up very quickly, and it makes peak torque at 1800rpm and feels like it. In sport mode the throttle is on a different planet than recent BMW throttles, go now means RIGHT NOW. What it does have is a bit of a drop off in power near the top of the rev range, so if you keep the pedal pinned to the floor it feels like its off boost when it swaps gears, even though it isn't. It's a little weird. The APR and Revo ECU reflashes correct that so the power and torque curve rises all the way to the top.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)
« Reply #999 on: July 30, 2013, 10:36:38 AM »

Sluggish throttle programming is purely CAFE/Emissions.  The majority of fuel consumption and emissions occur at start/stop.  Which is why the idea of a fuel-efficient hybrid w/o engine deactivation and electric propulsion was pretty ridiculous.

It's all about evolving regs.  Older cars had better throttle, weighed less, were even lower to the ground and more fun to drive.  Most newer cars are faster but more boring bloated pigs.  Oooh, I got 560hp in my M or AMG but I'm effing bored out of my mind and can't use it anywhere.  Whoopie!!   ::) Then take it to the track and your brakes and tires are fried after 2-3 laps.  Ghey!!!  I can't think of a dumber way to spend $100K+.  Well, unless Ray starts making cars or something.
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