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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)  (Read 158892 times)

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grev

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #840 on: April 28, 2013, 12:11:57 PM »

My thinking has it that I will buy a clementine Gallardo in 2 years or so.  :)p3
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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #841 on: April 30, 2013, 05:42:51 AM »

Stop the presses... Been running some numbers and ran across some info...

EV has new life in the form of leasing. Lease companies can pass on the tax credit savings in full for leases making the cost affordable especially when you subtract the gas saved.

My car 2006 Pontiac Grand Prix was 1 year old when purchased with 18,000 miles, now has 41,000 miles after 5.5 years of ownership Oct 2007 to now April 2013. Averaging 4200 miles per year at an estimated $3.10 per gallon over those 5.5 years plus approximately $2500 in mechanical repair/maintenance... my total cost of ownership (not including insurance) for 5.5 years was ~$20,000 or ~$3600/year. I don't know what my excise/tag/title fees were, but they would have to be less than a new Volt. However there is the fact that I do own my car and it is probably worth around $7000 in present condition meaning my actual cost of ownership if I were to sell/trade it in, is ~$13,000 and ~$2400 per year.

A base Volt at $2400 down $299 a month would be completely gas free except 2-3 out of town trips per year, so taking off $75, the monthly payment (with down payment added) is $293 per month. The car has a 5 year 100k warranty (and 8 year 100k on battery) so I should have nothing but maintenance costs during the same time period I've had my Pontiac, perhaps $500 ($13/mo). This comes out to ~$3700 per year, or ~$20,200 for 5.5 years. The per year is the more important figure to look at since leases aren't for 5.5 years.

Obviously right now I'm paying very little for my current car, so I paid more in a shorter time for the Grand Prix, and the longer I own it, the smaller the per year it will be, but it isn't going down all that quickly paying $700 a year for gas plus maintenance and the longer I go the more at risk I am for bigger failures. At 10 years the Grand Prix would be down to perhaps $1800-2000 per year depending on repairs, potentially much higher if there is an engine/tranny failure. The Volt and future cars like it would never decrease in price, but they would always be new and have little to no repair downtime (and no cost because of warranty). In addition, I can easily get away without having the 240V charger as I only drive about 5-10 miles per day with occasional weekend jaunts of up to 30-40 per day. From empty to full on 120V is 10-15 hours and my car is typically home for at least 10 hours in a stretch every day.

The Nissan Leaf at $2000 down $199 a month is even better for money, but I'd have to look at it in person to see if I could accept the car. For my out of town trips I'd rent a car, but at a difference of $100 per month on the Volt, it's still far cheaper. Cost per year is ~$2300 or ~$12,000 for a 5.5 year period. That's a new car every lease period for less than my current (used) car cost me in the same time period. What...?

Looking ahead to what I had previously decided on, the 2015 GTI, we're looking at a MSRP of around $27-28,000 with a few options. At 5 years (60 months) and a good rate (1-3%) that is approximately $500 a month + gas ($75) for a total of $575 per month or ~$7250/year including a couple hundred for maintenance/misc. Even after 10 years (paid off in 5 years) I'm still at $4000 per year and that's not counting any out of warranty (only 3 years 36k) repairs. It's hard to say what this new GTI would be worth after 10 years, but 2003 GTIs are worth about $6000. This residual value is worth $50 per month bringing down the per year (again no repairs) to $3400. Add repairs (yeah it's a VW, you can count on it) and you are back to Volt lease territory or higher.

I started out wanting a new car this time, so used to save some money isn't an option unless it was an out of production car (like the MR-2 Spyder, which turned out to not be in all that great of shape, pinstriping all torn up, scratches, interior sag/bumps/etc, overall roughness). The Volt lease is looking mighty attractive now. It's actually cheaper than buying a significantly cheaper gas car. The Leaf, if it turns out to be an acceptable car, is amazingly cheap.

Anyone care to check my numbers and/or give their thoughts? I know there will be taxes/etc to add on, but those won't be appreciably different over a 10 year period. I think I just saved myself from a huge mistake buying a GTI...

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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #842 on: April 30, 2013, 10:46:44 AM »

Reading up on some Leaf forums. People are getting Leaf SV (mid range model ($33k sticker)) leases with tax/tag/title rolled together for around $5800-6300 on 2 year leases. $2900-3150 per year fees included, not bad. I would probably go 3 year which would reduce the per year due to spreading fees over an extra year.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #843 on: April 30, 2013, 06:52:14 PM »

They put pinstripes on an MR-S?  Heretics!

For fun:
Click on the first link and let it load up, then the second right after.  Tab back to the first, grab some popcorn and enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2RBRCaVjYrM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC5XCX6Cgz8
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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #844 on: May 01, 2013, 03:07:39 AM »

Just got back from test driving and inspecting a Leaf. I was blown away, no pun intended. This was the SL top trim model which goes for $37k sticker. It did not have the premium package (Bose stereo (what a loss!) and backup camera (would really like to have that). It had leather seats that were some of the best I've ever sat in. Back seats were somewhat tight for me at 6'1" with the driver's seat in a comfortable position for me driving, though nobody but kids would be back there. The hatch had plenty of room, smaller width and depth than the trunk in my Grand Prix, but more than enough for anything I would tote around town. The key-less entry and push button start was really nice, something I hadn't experienced yet, but had on my wish list for other cars. The joystick style gear selector will take some getting used to, but it wasn't a problem at all.

The drive was the most impressive part. Ultra quiet with very little wind noise (on a fairly windy day too) and only a slight whine from the electric motor. I'd seen a youtube video where the whine was more pronounced, but the person driving said it was faint. I'm guessing the microphone was picking it up better than the person for whatever reason. It was almost too quiet to hear at times. The ride quality was probably the most impressive part of the whole package. One of the roads we went on was heavily patched up with terrible quality patches. That same road on my Grand Prix made me able to hear my suspension rattling a bit and sending hard shocks to the passengers. Not so with the Leaf, it was certainly a bumpy ride, but it was relatively quiet with nothing but some thuds and no hard shocks at all. It's a firm, yet smooth, stable ride with not much roll in fast cornering. There was plenty of power, and while it's not a sports car, I had no problems with it's acceleration. In Eco mode it certainly slows you down noticeably, but does give you about 10% more range. Even Eco mode wasn't too bad, I'd probably drive in normal most of the time, but if I get one I'll try out Eco for a while.

The 2013 model has a few tweaks over the 2012 including a charging port hatch button on the key fob instead of having to open from a lever inside the car, a slightly bigger battery giving an extra 10-15 miles of range for a total of 90-115 miles, and leather seats as an option (SL trim only) among other lesser changes.

The sales guy mentioned they can do rentals on base model Sentra/Altima types as well for when I need to go out of town. No idea how their prices would compare to a normal rental place, but I thought that was a nice option.

Tempted to stop right there at the Leaf, but I think I should look at the Volt tomorrow. The Nissan place is right next door to the Chevy place ironically so I can test on the same driving path.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #845 on: May 01, 2013, 11:38:45 PM »

The one thing that concerns me about the Leaf is that (as far as I know) there's no advanced thermal management for the battery as on more expensive EVs like Teslas. I guess if you live in a moderate climate area that wouldn't be much of an issue, but I remember reading about people in the sunbelt getting their range cut in half in a pretty short period of time.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #846 on: May 02, 2013, 12:45:03 AM »

And reliability/safety.  Leasing should be fine, but the prospect of owning a car whose battery pack has more seals and ancillary parts than the rest of the car combined is off putting to me.
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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #847 on: May 02, 2013, 05:03:36 AM »

The one thing that concerns me about the Leaf is that (as far as I know) there's no advanced thermal management for the battery as on more expensive EVs like Teslas. I guess if you live in a moderate climate area that wouldn't be much of an issue, but I remember reading about people in the sunbelt getting their range cut in half in a pretty short period of time.
A three year Leaf owner in Texas has reported he still has 89% capacity. Getting a new lease every three years should mean you retain 85%+ of your battery life.
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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #848 on: May 02, 2013, 05:15:03 AM »

And reliability/safety.  Leasing should be fine, but the prospect of owning a car whose battery pack has more seals and ancillary parts than the rest of the car combined is off putting to me.
That's one reason I would recommend anyone adopting electrics now to not buy but to continually lease. The main reason to do that though is because tech is getting better rapidly and you don't want to invest in something that might be obsoleted overnight and ruin your resale.

There was an interesting piece on the vortex about how long range EV cars are detrimental to society right now because 95%+ people do not travel more than 40 miles per day. The $45,000 battery system in a Tesla is mostly waste because its range is rarely utilized. All of this work to extend EV cars could be put off to later when the grid is more mature and other technology advances that could be used to achieve the longer range EV with less effort. People have range anxiety for no reason, especially those who live in a multicar household that can handle emergencies or the occasional out of town trip.
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Maxvla

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #849 on: May 02, 2013, 06:42:56 AM »

Tried the Volt tonight. Impressive car, but had some quirks that make it not ideal for me. First of all, the interior room for people is tight, even the front seats. The area in front of your face to the windshield seems to go on forever though. Really odd. The rear seats are nearly 2+2 type room. With the front seat in a comfortable position for myself (6'1") my knees were embedded in the front seat while sitting in the back. The car drives like a tank, you can really feel the massive weight. It is not a nimble car, but it does accelerate well in sport mode. Turning feels like I'm driving an aircraft carrier. The suspension does an admirable job, but it feels very similar to my Pontiac in that there is a lot of play and then it reaches a hard point. The Leaf was stiffer as it traveled and didn't hit a hard point, this is much more preferable to me. Minor bumps are felt more often, but the bigger bumps are smoother, with the Volt the minor bumps almost didn't exist, but the big bumps trumpeted their presence.

The Volt's systems seemed quieter during operation, only a very faint whine of the motor, quieter than the Leaf, was detectable. The Volt seemed to have more sound deadening from it's own systems, but strangely road noise was louder, noticeably so. The Leaf's leather seats were some of the best I've ever sat in, the Volt seats I could never get comfortable with. Also the steering wheel/driver's seat position was odd in the Volt. The Leaf is also somewhat odd, but it didn't feel bad, just different. The Volt felt bad. The Volt's hatch area is more side to side and deep where the Leaf is more vertical and side to side. Comparable in space, but I'd probably give the nod to the Volt. Normally you want more horizontal space than vertical. The screens in the Volt were clear winners. Far better than the Leaf, but the Leaf's screens do enough to get the job done. The 'upgraded' Bose stereo in the Volt sounded terrible. I didn't try the one in the Leaf. I'll be going to look at it again on Friday so I'll be sure to test that. I rarely pay attention to the car radio, it's more of a background filler.

The extended range of the Volt doesn't make up for my complaints and the premium price in comparison to the Leaf. Also the Volt apparently is not in production currently and the only Volt's they had were new 2012 models and they could not offer a lease on them because of that. Chevy missed the mark, it's too cramped, too expensive, and doesn't handle well. Nissan however seems to have hit a home run now that they are making them in the US and can thus drop the price to current levels. Saying that, though, I would go with the Leaf even if price were no object. It's a better car, period.
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