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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)  (Read 158892 times)

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catscratch

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #830 on: April 24, 2013, 08:20:58 PM »

This is why I like Car and Driver's 5-60 tests. They avoid the launch and give you a much better idea of what the car's real-world performance is going to be like. Now, the big question is, do you trust Car and Driver's numbers? I can count on no fingers at all the number of publications I trust implicitly.

Also, let's get one thing straight here. In the real world, nobody launches their car off every stoplight. Nobody pulls a full G in every turn on the street and nobody drives over 120mph on a regular basis unless they're in Germany. If you say you do, you're either lying, or you'll need a new car, license, or a really good lawyer soon (incidentally, I've been there and I got off lucky, and I have friends who didn't).

On the street, a car needs to be as fun at 6/10ths as it is at 10/10ths. The fun range is 40-120 mph, and even 120 is a little pushing it. This is partially why a slow car driven fast is more fun than a fast car driven slowly. Manufacturers like performance numbers since they stink of objective relevance and young males like numbers as dick measuring contests, but they have less applicability than you might think. Buying a car based purely on numbers is a sure way towards headaches and disappointment.

The "two personalities" thing in a car is something that I discovered early on and something that's mandatory, especially if it's going to be your only car. That's why things like the GTI, G35/37, 3-series, and so on, are so popular - they can do the fast stuff, but they are also a normal car when you need them to be, and they're also fun at normal speeds where it matters the most.

Unfortunately this sort of thing doesn't sell cars, which is why manufacturers are making their normal cars more boring, while pushing any semblance of enthusiasm towards expensive, superlative performance cars that sell because they post impressive numbers but are utterly impractical on the street.

These aren't good days for enthusiasts unless they're well-heeled. I hope the Toyobaru sells boatloads and inspires other automakers to follow suit. I'm even thinking of buying one.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #831 on: April 24, 2013, 09:20:45 PM »

The "two personalities" thing in a car is something that I discovered early on and something that's mandatory, especially if it's going to be your only car. That's why things like the GTI, G35/37, 3-series, and so on, are so popular - they can do the fast stuff, but they are also a normal car when you need them to be, and they're also fun at normal speeds where it matters the most.

THIS. This is why the Z4 3.0si is actually a better car than the Z4M. You can toss the 3.0 around and have fun with it, and when you just want to kick back and relax on a long drive, it's happy to do that too. The Z4M doesn't do relaxed. The ride is too hard, and when you're not REALLY pushing it's actually rather dull and lifeless. There's way too much performance for regular streets, and when you're only using 10-20% of its ability, it doesn't want to even get out of bed.

Track toys are fine, but literally the last thing I would ever want to do is drive 6 hours on the highway in a track toy, or in an EVO in top gear at 80mph with the engine near 4,000rpm the entire time. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm not sure the prognosis is actually that bad for enthusiasts who want something between an Elise and an old Buick. By most accounts Cadillac has done an excellent job with the ATS. A new A4 and A5 will be due in a couple of years, and based on the direction Audi has been headed lately, they should be lighter, better balanced, and better to drive than the current cars.

You can get a 183", turbocharged Buick. With a stick! Imagine Buick trying to sell something like that 10 or 15 years ago amidst their Centuries and what was then the Regal. The Regal is a real car now!

Thanks to "one Ford" we now have access to the cars Ford sells in Europe to compete against the aforementioned Clio RS, GTI, and Astra VXR. That means they are actually good. I don't think Hyundai is quite there yet, but they will get there soon enough, and they've certainly come a long way since the "Hyundai Accident 3-cyl diesel."

The Q50 is the best looking Infiniti ever, and with Johan de Nysschen in charge of the place, hopefully they will finally get their ride/handling/balance/refinement in order and be able to compete with the best. I can't stand the looks of the new IS, but clearly they are trying to make it much more of an enthusiasts car than the last one. Considering how much positive press the GS has gotten for its abilities, they can probably pull it off.

The Toyobaru twins may also convince Nissan to rethink the Z and turn it back into a true lightweight sports car instead of the roid-rage muscle machine that it is now.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #832 on: April 24, 2013, 10:13:45 PM »

VERY relevant to the current discussion:

The video also makes a good point - one of the absolute best "multiple personality" cars isn't sold here.


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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #833 on: April 24, 2013, 10:31:12 PM »


Here's the thing about the EVO. Yes it's insanely fast. But it's also a Mitsubishi Lancer, which is a TERRIBLE car. There's a reason why the EVO is so fast for so little money spent. Mitsubishi spent about $1 on refinement, and it was $1 wasted. If you think the MazdaSpeed3 is too civilized and too nice to live with day to day, buy an EVO. Stock up on headache medicine, you're gonna need it thanks to all the NVAH. 

Also, the "0-60 in 4.5" is a bit bullshit, only attained with brutal hard launching. If somebody with a blown 6 or V8 catches you off guard in the wrong gear, you're toast. Under about 3,000rpm or so the engine is basically dead. You can see the man behind the curtain when you look at 5-60mph "street start" tests, the "4.5 second" EVO becomes a 6.5 second+ car.

Yes, I had a Mitsu many many years ago and there's a reason I don't anymore.  Actually a few.  My problems were more electrical and mechanical rather than refinement.  Besides Mitsu did tweak the new Evo suspension to be more daily driver friendly compared to when the X launched.  This isn't uncommon when cars are tuned for Japans silky smooth roads and then the same car gets dropped into LA's pothole minefield. 

As for the 0-62 being a bit BS.  That's BS.  It has electronic launch control, not some random d-bag dropping the clutch.  Plus it uses a DSG so what gear are you going to miss or get caught off guard by?  I don't know where you are seeing a Evo X w/ DSG doing anything more than high 4's.  6.5 sec is ridiculous, my MR-S does that and that's even slower than my Legacy GT.  It's impossible for an Evo to do 6.5 secs unless you start in reverse!
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Like I said earlier, cat is right, slower cars are more fun to push.  That's why I prefer weight reduction over power.  Later braking, carrying momentum, tilting the car or breaking some rubber loose.  Hell, I'd an IQ and strip it down and tweak it.  I bet even the Prius C is fun at 2400lbs.  Has the same stock weight to power ratio as my old Corolla and I had a blast in that thing, pushed it harder than any car I've had since.  Meh, most Americans think fun resides at the throttle.  Explains the ridiculous fascination w/ NASCAR.  facepalm I'll take brakes and cornering over that anyday.  OMG the body's leaning! OMG the tires are squealing! OMG the brakes are on fire!  <----Fun.  Get a reliable econobox and drive the living shit out of it. 


___________

The good times for enthusiast cars is coming.  Wait and see what 2015-16 brings......
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #834 on: April 24, 2013, 10:42:25 PM »

Q50 best looking?  That's just a Mazda 6 clone.  :-Z

Toyota's got the Supra, FRS w/ KERS, another MR2, Lexus FRS maybe based on Supra.  Honda has an IMA CRX, their own IMA MR, NSX and baby NSX, Nissan is doing the 240 again, Z-car already started shrinking w/ the 370 (350 was a pig).  BMW Z4 will be built on an FRS chassis.  VW killed the entry level MR Audi/VW/Porsche so you have to buy a Golf.  AUDI e-tron is on again off-again.  Alfa 4C is coming along their version of the next Miata (supposed to be under 2000lbs), Lotus is not dead.  Next Mustang will be smaller and have IRS.  Camaro and Cuda will also be smaller cars.  Future is looking decent for thrills.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #835 on: April 25, 2013, 01:07:37 AM »

As for the 0-62 being a bit BS.  That's BS.  It has electronic launch control, not some random d-bag dropping the clutch.  Plus it uses a DSG so what gear are you going to miss or get caught off guard by?  I don't know where you are seeing a Evo X w/ DSG doing anything more than high 4's.  6.5 sec is ridiculous, my MR-S does that and that's even slower than my Legacy GT.  It's impossible for an Evo to do 6.5 secs unless you start in reverse!
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C&D tested two EVOs, their time for an '08 MR with the DSG was 0-60 in 5.3, 5-60 in 6.0. An '08 5-speed manual EVO GSR managed 0-60 in 4.6, 5-60 in 6.1. I've seen as high as 6.5 for just mashing the accelerator in gear rather than using LC or hard launching the MT. A Cayman S posted 0-60 in 4.5, 5-60 in 5.7.

The Cayman was also faster in the 1/4 with a higher trap speed.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #836 on: April 25, 2013, 01:21:45 AM »

Q50 best looking?  That's just a Mazda 6 clone.  :-Z

The point stands. The Q50 is by far the best of an otherwise pretty bad bunch. I'm not holding my breath on Honda. The company that made the Prelude SH, Integra Type R, S2000, and the Senna tuned NSX has been mostly wandering around lately trying to figure out what kind of cars they want to make. The designs are bad, and most of the interiors are god awful.
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catscratch

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #837 on: April 25, 2013, 01:28:19 AM »

Remember, those times are 5-60, not 0-60. There is no launch. This is why they are so much better at approximating real world conditions. As in: the Subieyota's 6.2s to 60 doesn't seem bad, but that's with a high-rpm clutch dump, the 5-60 is 8s, and that's far more indicative of its everyday performance. Though some discount has to be made for a high-revving torqueless wonder engine that's forced to spend time at low revs in 1st gear. Once it gets rolling, it will be faster.

Also, a lot of the cars you listed are hardly going to be affordable. My point was that it's not a good time to be an everyman enthusiast. Yes, there are a lot of exciting cars coming out over the 40k pricepoint but they're not for everybody.

Lastly, I'm actually pretty sold on the whole KERS and performance hybrid thing, as long as manufacturers can keep the weight down. Coming back to torqueless wonder engines, with a hybrid that's not a problem, since you can optimize an engine for high-rpm operation and have the low-end torque supplemented by the electric motor. I think this will lead to some much higher-revving extremely oversquare engines appearing on the market, and those will probably be one hell of a lot more fun to play around with than your typical 2 liter turbo 4.

But, alas, not cheap.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #838 on: April 25, 2013, 03:01:10 AM »

Also, a lot of the cars you listed are hardly going to be affordable. My point was that it's not a good time to be an everyman enthusiast. Yes, there are a lot of exciting cars coming out over the 40k pricepoint but they're not for everybody.

Blame a market that still can't get enough SUVs and crossovers. Other countries don't have any issues for the everyman enthusiast.





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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #839 on: April 25, 2013, 03:36:46 AM »

I'm not seeing any of these 6.5 sec Evos man.  Maybe you're thinking of the Lancer (non-Evo) Ralliart or a Gallant.   


Actually half of the cars, if not more, that I mentioned will be under $30K.
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