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Author Topic: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?  (Read 1871 times)

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melikeheadphone

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What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« on: May 12, 2015, 05:00:17 AM »
Hey guys,


I'm relatively new to this hobby. I've only had three different DAC/Amp/Combo…
• FiioK17/something docked
• Sony UDA-1 (DAC/Amp combo, Single Ended only)
• Schiit Gungnir (output to Mjolnir, and now Ragnarok)

I don't think I can make a fair comparison between the UDA-1 and the Gungnir; since the UDA-1 is a combo while the Schiit stacks are two separate objects.

I would love to know what are the factors that can make one DAC can sound different from another? And if so; what characteristics should I be on the look out for (assuming we're using a single theoretical, ultra neutral amp, and using an theoretical ultra neutral headphone). I'm particularly interested in the TOTL DACs and why Schiit's Yggydrasil is getting so much positive vibe from a lot of owners.

Cheers! (and I've got my flame proof suit on, in case I get hate for asking this).
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anetode

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2015, 05:16:51 AM »
 :)p8
(click to show/hide)
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melikeheadphone

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2015, 05:18:51 AM »
ROFL. Surely YOU will take some of the flame as well now ;P.
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Armaegis

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 06:03:48 AM »
Nothing is perfect. It's all approximations and reconstruction, with varying levels of distortion and noise and non linear thingamabobs. Different chips have different specs. There are different ways to solve (or pretend) the math that connects the dots. Different components may affect the output. Different components may affect how the dac interfaces with an amp or downstream component. Capacitors and transformers and pixie dust do special voodoo. Different power supplies may or may not inject their own brand of noise into whatever mojo comes out. USB is a giant honking mess. Are there buffers in the dac? What's this thing called jitter? Have you consumed any recreational substances recently?

Seriously, these things can be built from entirely different components, different topologies, different software/filters/firmware/witchcraft, different power supplies, and you're asking what makes them sound different?

TL;DR... everything.
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anetode

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 06:11:37 AM »
Quote from: melikeheadphone on May 12, 2015, 05:18:51 AM
ROFL. Surely YOU will take some of the flame as well now ;P.

That's what I'm here for. Also might as well get the obvious out of the way.
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melikeheadphone

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 06:31:27 AM »
Quote from: Armaegis on May 12, 2015, 06:03:48 AM
Nothing is perfect. It's all approximations and reconstruction, with varying levels of distortion and noise and non linear thingamabobs. Different chips have different specs. There are different ways to solve (or pretend) the math that connects the dots. Different components may affect the output. Different components may affect how the dac interfaces with an amp or downstream component. Capacitors and transformers and pixie dust do special voodoo. Different power supplies may or may not inject their own brand of noise into whatever mojo comes out. USB is a giant honking mess. Are there buffers in the dac? What's this thing called jitter? Have you consumed any recreational substances recently?

Seriously, these things can be built from entirely different components, different topologies, different software/filters/firmware/witchcraft, different power supplies, and you're asking what makes them sound different?

TL;DR... everything.


Pretty much! I'd love if you can get into further details… can a DAC make something sound muffled? dark? lazy? etc.… (we're still under the assumption we're listening through a theoretical Amp/Headphone that is super "natural")
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ultrabike

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 06:35:57 AM »
Quote from: melikeheadphone on May 12, 2015, 06:31:27 AM

Pretty much! I'd love if you can get into further details… can a DAC make something sound muffled? dark? lazy? etc.… (we're still under the assumption we're listening through a theoretical Amp/Headphone that is super "natural")

Add undersized coupling caps, and voila!
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Anaxilus

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 06:37:17 AM »
Quote from: melikeheadphone on May 12, 2015, 06:31:27 AM

Pretty much! I'd love if you can get into further details… can a DAC make something sound muffled? dark? lazy? etc.… (we're still under the assumption we're listening through a theoretical Amp/Headphone that is super "natural")

Yes. Butterworth filters a la HM801/602. Different analog output topologies. Poor power supply choices. Bad source input implementation (jitter, impedance mismatch, etc.).

Don't forget, most of what people consider their 'digital' signal chain actually resides in a largerly analog world. Also consider many of the best recorded masters were done using tube gear.  :-0

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melikeheadphone

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 07:10:54 AM »
Here's my dilemma…

I love Schiit's stuff. I like them as a company. I like what they do, I like their philosophy. So, there's clear fanboyism/bias coming from me.

My stack:
• Current Setup: Gungnir + Ragnarok
• Past Setups: Gungnir + Mjolnir // Gungnir + Asgard 2 // Bifrost Uber + Asgard 2 (I can tell massive difference upgrading from Asgard 2 to Mjolnir; so I sent the Asgard 2 to the attic. My first introduction to "WOW DAMN!" was G+M combo, with balanced HD800 and HE-6)
• Headphones: HE-6, HD800 and TH900 on my rack (and my Sony MDR-Z7).
 

Here's the DAC question:
However, I'm not sure if I can tell there's a significant difference between the Uber Bifrost and Gungnir (I owned both at one point, but kept the Gungnir). During A/B/X test… I kept getting them mixed up; and ONLY when I put extra attention, I can tell there's a slight difference.

Having said that, should I look into buying the Yggdrasil? Given my upgrade experience from Bifrost to Gungnir was hard to tell in sonic improvements (maybe because the price difference isn't as big of a leap? Maybe I have shitty hearing? Maybe there are other biases?).

I mean, I'm open to the idea of upgrading to Yggy and selling all my other Schiit stacks (Asgard 2, Mjolnir + Gungnir) and call it a day.

Mind you though… I'm very new to this, and I may not have the best ears. So, by no means this is any way at all to discourage people to upgrade/buy different DACs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 07:30:01 AM by melikeheadphone »
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Anaxilus

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Re: What Makes DACs Have Different Sounds/Quality?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 07:58:07 AM »
As you can tell, the Gungnir only had one revision. The Uber Bifrost is an improved version and the UB2 is even more so. So logically, if improvements are in fact being made they are getting closer to the Gungnir.

That said, the Yggy is a whole other ball game and nothing else sounds like it. It's in it's own performance category IMHO and well worth the price tag. You have a nice revealing amp and set of headphones so you should be able to appreciate the Yggy's improvement over the Gung much more so. So I'd get get an Yggy or perhaps wait for an upgrade to the Gung with Yggy trickle down which may happen who knows when.
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"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." - Lao Tzu

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