CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: The headphone technology thread...  (Read 5537 times)

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Priidik

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 06:53:12 PM »

I had to look at orho wiring to see my mistake.
Still, why would low end be so loose on HE400 with something like HDVA600, yet pretty tight with much crappier built in amp of Yulong dac.
HDVA is capable of delivering more voltage even considering the voltage division and based on specs more current too.
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Solderdude

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 07:50:03 PM »

From an EE point of view what Guru wrote made sense. :)p2

Indeed !

Drive an ortho from a Bakoon and it sounds the same ? as from a voltage driven amp, yet the output Z is incredibly high and there is NO damping whatsoever.

break-up, diaphragm stiffness and materials, efficiency, topology, diameter, pads, enclosure, impedance, weight of the total moving parts, acoustics, static or dynamic force, tension, cup size, open, closed or semi closed, magnetic field strength, magnetic field shape, bias voltage, driver diameter (if applicable), membrane shape, membrane enforcements, coupling of voicecoil to membrane (spot, materials), excursion linearity, damping, materials/obstructions in front and rear of the driver, magnet construction, frame rigidity and shape, amount of air in front and rear of the driver, seal, temperature, time (think years), weakeners in plastics etc., material availability, technical limits in manufacturing materials and other aspects I forgot to mention all matter and nearly all types of drivers are compromises in at least a number of these aspects and based on knowledge, philosophy, availability of materials, looks, target group (young people/audiophiles etc), profit margins, costs decisions.

Heaphones and speakers consist of compromises.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 08:23:53 PM by Solderdude »
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Bill-p

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 08:40:54 PM »

I disagree.
First of all, I don't see a real life situation where someone would insist on using the same amount of power for all his headphones. We all use differing amplification for different headphones, its common sense! Provided you use enough force (amplification) , both light and heavy diaphragms would move in accordance with the signal applied.
The actual benefit of a thinner diaphragm is not that it can be put to motion easily but rather that it can be stopped much more easily. A headphone diaphragm is like a mass loaded spring which continues to oscillate much longer after the signal was applied and needs an external force (damping material) to stop when it should.
With a thinner diaphragm, we need a much lighter damping material compared to what we would need for a thicker diaphragm. So, with a thinner diaphragm we avoid the side effects of damping materials (which all of them have to some degree) and we have a headphone which sounds much more open as the more heavily damped headphones tend to sound rather closed in. 


I'm looking at it from a measurement standpoint, too.

If you send a sine wave signal to an amplifier with voltage gain and voltage output (so no funny Bakoon current-output business), the signal that the headphone should receive will be a sine wave at the same voltage amplitude but with different frequencies.

With orthodynamic headphones, this essentially means you have the same power across the entire frequency spectrum. It's just a matter of "how fast" that power is being delivered.

Let's look at it from a different point of view: if I have two headphones, same impedance rating, orthodynamic (so no impedance swing), magnetic field gradients the same, etc... but one has a thinner diaphragm than the other, what would happen when I send the same signal to either one?

They both receive the same current, in the same magnetic field, so force applied to both is the same. But obviously the acceleration applied to both will be different. The thinner diaphragm, which is lighter, will get more acceleration, so... technically, more "stopping power" mechanically. At higher frequencies, this means that the diaphragm will be forced to stop when it has not gone very far. However, at lower frequencies, the diaphragm will go further before it is forced to stop. During this time that the diaphragm takes to travel this "further distance" it technically is also experiencing air resistance. With the same surface area, air resistance should be the same for both, but the thinner diaphragm will once again experience more acceleration due to air resistance. More acceleration = more stopping force.

Now, a good amplifier will apply a force and then stop applying that force, right? So after that initial acceleration, the only force that the diaphragm would experience is air resistance here. So no matter how strong the original acceleration was, the diaphragm will always experience this air resistance, and so it will always stop a bit short of where it should end up being. This may not matter much at higher frequencies where starting and stopping forces are applied more rapidly, but at lower frequencies, sometimes, the diaphragm may actually stop even before the stopping force is applied. We are talking big surface area with barely any mass here.

In practice, I think this is why electrostats always measure with very mediocre low bass performance. I mean... don't take it from me. Take it from those measurements. For instance, let's look at ultra's measurements of the SR-009:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,23.msg32768.html#msg32768

I'm seeing bass drop off below 60Hz. This may be due to poor fit, but I don't think so. It is very likely that air is acting like an acoustic dampener here, and it's forcing the e-stat diaphragm to stop before it reaches maximum excursion.

Also by that logic, a good seal would mean less air between ear and diaphragm, which means... technically less air resistance. What would happen? Bass should increase.

So that's why I believe air resistance is significant here. But of course, you may very well be right that it doesn't matter.

As for open-ness and such, I think we'll have a discussion on that soon. :)p1
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Solderdude

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2015, 09:33:22 PM »

As the ortho driver is essentially a resistor, the Bakoon also creates the exact same voltage across the driver as a voltage amp would when the same power is applied.

Your theories are funny to read .. from an EE's perspective.

A lighter membrane can simply follow a signal more accurate at higher speeds (= higher frequencies) and if the driving forces are the same the excursion is the same.
One isn't 'braked' more than the other when the force and surface area is the same, the heavier membrane simply can't accelerate and brake as fast.

Amplifiers have nothing to do with this either, nor their damping factor.
Their role is simply to supply the needed voltage.
It must thus also be able to supply the current drawn by the driver for that to be so.

In electrostats, because the driver is a capacitor the 'force' on the membrane gets lower as the frequency gets lower.
A heavier membrane there does not result in better LF response, rather in poorer HF response.
Also the tension of stat membranes needs to be higher to avoid it swinging (or even sticking) to one side which limits the excursions it can make.
Low frequencies need larger excursions which it can only make in the center of the mebrane effectively making the surface area 'smaller' at higher excursions.
Not so with current based drivers powered by a constant magnetic force and less tightly tensioned mebranes.
Also when stats are driven from transformers there are limits to lower frequencies (transformers can't transform DC).
Orthos do not have this limitation, low impedance ribbons do though.

At least that's the way I see this but every one is free to disagree.
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Bill-p

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2015, 11:24:20 PM »

I think you're missing air resistance there.

My hypothesis is that because the diaphragm gets thinner but its surface area remains the same, the effect of air resistance becomes more pronounced, and at lower frequencies, specifically, where the start/stop forces may not be enough to overcome this air resistance, the diaphragm won't move as far as it could.

So this "braking" happens due to natural air resistance, and not because of any electrical property. From an electrical standpoint, the conducting traces (and the cable) are the only things that should matter, so the amplifier won't necessarily see and be able to account for this mechanical incidence.

Conversely, for e-stats, the capacitance will create a reactance at lower frequencies, which alters how much power is being delivered, but I don't think the amp is doing anything special to account for this air resistance.

This can easily be remedied by increasing the "force" as frequency gets lower (do a bass boost), right? But even when you do that, e-stats can't sustain the same bass body and impact as orthodynamic/planar magnetic headphones. So something else is at work here. This is just my theory on it.

A headphone is more than just an electrical device after all. ;)
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ultrabike

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2015, 12:00:14 AM »

I'm not an expert in mechanics (some others may be). But intuitively, I would be more concerned about pressure throughout a given volume than air resistance.

As far as stats, I believe their main asset is the membrane surface area. Their limitations maybe due to contraints in displacement.

For electronics, when you send a signal to an amplifier, that amplifier better send something very similar to the headphone either in voltage or current depending on amplifier topology. If the source is a sine wave, the headphone should receive the same sine wave with the same frequency (anything else is non-linear distortion by definition).

Furthermore, out-of-band (audio) frequency vibrations in the driver may not be that interesting. In-band frequency vibrations and other linear randomness (including stopping and starting power or whatevs) are captured in the headphone SLP impulse response which are represented in a frequency response plot in a more human friendly and readable fashion. Non-linear distortion due to all kinds of driver deformation, electronics non-idealities, and motor issues is a different animal.

Of note however, is that SPL impulse response is not necessarily uniform thorughout the volume and across frequency... which gives positional sensitivities. In speakers it's called the sweet spot.
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Anaxilus

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2015, 12:41:48 AM »

Don't you think that some of you guys are being a bit dismissive of the push by engineers for ever thinner and lighter diaphragms? Wasn't that what Stax and other current manufacturers like Audeze and Hifiman have been evolving toward since the Omega/007/009 and LCD3/HE1000?
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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2015, 01:06:12 AM »

May I ask if the rules are different for dynamic driver headphones? I'm interested in the trade-offs involved in a metal-coated driver (e.g. the sony z7) in terms of weight added versus increased stiffness. Also, I've read in previous discussions that the metal coated dynamics can have resonance peaks (iirc)? Anyway, very interested in the discussion, thanks!
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ultrabike

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2015, 01:11:18 AM »

Not necessarily dissing thinner and lighter diaphragms. They proly bring some goodness to them. Just not following the air resistance, amplifier and "speed" explanation.

Also, not sure if this applies to every type of driver, but I was under the impression that for low frequency reproduction one needs a little bit of mass, and for high frequencies low mass, so there might be sweet spot.  Therefore I honestly don't know for sure what is the deal with having super thin diaphragms as a cure all, and the thinner the better.

What I can say though is that I believe the LCD-X and the Stax cans seem to have fairly thin diaphragms. And those require seal to keep pressure under control or bass is gone bye-bye. On the other hand, there might be some distortion benefits since it appears that both LCD-X and Stax cans have low distortion numbers across the audible frequency range.

An-off-my-butt theory about that could be that the low mass takes care of the distortion and performance on the higher frequencies, while the required seal takes care of the distortion at the lower frequencies. There might be a sweet spoot about the thinness here as well. Perhaps too much and there may not be enough mass to drive low frequencies inside the sealed volume. This kind of falls into place with my understanding of the importance of acousitc impedance and limited knowledge about drivers, so it's easier to digest for me than the air resistance talk. That does not necesarily make me right, and I'm not about to spread the word about things I'm not an expert on.
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Armaegis

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Re: The headphone technology thread...
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2015, 01:21:04 AM »

Ooh, I think I'm finally decoding the Bill-speak.

Bill, stop using the phrase "stopping power", it's really confusing. It's just electromotive forces at play... but also, the power from the amp doesn't just start and stop, it's continuous with the wave. I'm sure you know that, but the way you're phrasing stuff makes it sound like you're assuming it's all energy pulses or something.
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