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Author Topic: AZ's modded PM-2s  (Read 6985 times)

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AZ

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2015, 11:49:22 PM »

   Ok here is a few more measurements of different PM-1/2 pads from Tyll and then ones made today on my own rig using left driver of the brand new PM-2 positioned exactly the same with all the pads. The differences are quite dramatic and true for both mine and Tyll's rigs. We can also see that PM-2 pleather pad measures quite similar to the alternative leather one while both original leather and velour measure quite different with original PM-1 leather which in turn is closest to the alternative leather and PM-2 pleather pads. The differences are definitely there, don't know why not every rig and every ear captures them though.














« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 12:28:29 AM by AZ »
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ultrabike

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2015, 05:31:29 AM »

Ultra, not that I generally doubt your measurements much, but I guess I'm just surprised the PMx2 measured so similarly to the stock PM-1 or 2. Just seems a bit too homogeneous for me, and I subjectively hear a larger difference. Even compared to the HD600. Dunno. Also, what amps have you tried the OPPOs from? IME certain setups and amps make them sound more strained and grainy than others, but I believe that you heard what you heard when you listened to these.

I think it's definitively ok to doubt both my measurements n my impressions just as much as anyone's but your own.

Subjectively n measurements wise I honestly don't hear this nite n day difference you n Alex r hearing vs the stock product. BUT IMO there are non negligible difference between these n the HD600s. The 600 IMO r much more my cup of tea. Easily. The mids are grainier on the PMX2s. I think this is due to driver limitations n not sure Alex can do much about it. Like I said before, I loved the bass of the PMX2sm but that was about the only thing I liked more about them vs the 600s.

Now I've heard the Oppos from a variety of setups including Oppos own amp n some of Craig's amps n sources. Felt the bottleneck was always the cans.

   Ok here is a few more measurements of different PM-1/2 pads from Tyll and then ones made today on my own rig using left driver of the brand new PM-2 positioned exactly the same with all the pads. The differences are quite dramatic and true for both mine and Tyll's rigs. We can also see that PM-2 pleather pad measures quite similar to the alternative leather one while both original leather and velour measure quite different with original PM-1 leather which in turn is closest to the alternative leather and PM-2 pleather pads. The differences are definitely there, don't know why not every rig and every ear captures them though

Alex, we talked about this before. Like Tyll said in the article were u got his plots: "All these pads are close enough in character to be quite similar, but different enough to warrant a good hard look." We are looking at differences after averaging of 1 or 2 dB. I don't see the dramatical difference you keep alluding to. Not all headphones react the same way to pad or other mod changes. The driver on these ones seems to be a bit less pad seal dependent.

I would have to look at the measurements you supplied, but those did look dramatic if I remember correctly. Even in the bass region.
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Hands

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2015, 06:22:02 AM »

OK, I gotcha. I might also be referring more to treble grain than mid grain, and I think the 650 is a bigger offender than the 600 in that way. But I'm sure many disagree. Hard to know how similarly we're really hearing things let alone if we're always talking about the same thing.
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ultrabike

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2015, 06:41:23 AM »

Could be Hands. But I didn't feel the Oppos stuff had superior treble to th 6x0es. Just bass.

BTW Alex, Tyll's plots exhibit a higher variation due to head coupler Vs a flat baffle coupler. What I read from those plots and commentary is that differences between pads exist. But these changes r not mind blowing.

Though "mind blowing" is really kind of a relative term. If I was a sucker for the Oppos sound I Proly would just get a PM2 TBH. However, your cans do seem to steep it  upanother notch.

This is not like the case of the T50RP were mods do seem to turn a POS can into something quite enjoyable. Mainly cuz I do not feel the Oppos r POSes in stock form. stock T50rps suck quite a bit more.
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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2015, 07:50:08 AM »

I really could use having a stock PM1 or 2 on hand with velour pads to compare directly, but I feel like I can at least trust my general memory enough that the PM1 with velour pads is the sort of headphone you could fall asleep to where as the PMx2 is not for me. Retains the idea but livens it in a sense. That alone is a big change in my mind but, no, nothing like going from a T50RP to a Paradox, I agree. And dunno, maybe I get a stock Oppo in and realize my memory was extra bad!
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Colgin

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2015, 07:16:00 PM »

   To finish up the measurement thingy I can say that my random measurements of different pads from few months ago do correlate perfectly (within 0.5db) to the ones done just recently when all four brand new pads arrived along with brand new PM-2s. This for me removes the rig variation concerns but I would certainly agree small variations should exist within reason just not something like 5db. 
   Tyll's article and measurements of OPPO pads (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/oppo-ear-pads-listening-and-measurements) clearly indicate significant, also up to 5db variations in frequency response for different pads. That is quite noteworthy considering some small differences had to be smoothed out by how he averages multiple takes and compensates for HATS. Though it would be really interesting to see how my PMx2s would measure on his rig.
   Once at it will say a few things from my own experience about in ear measurements similar to those Hans uses. Crucial points for those are the insertion depth, angle of the mike relatively to the driver, acoustical properties of the material used to secure the mike inside the ear canal ( different materials would create different pressure within the coupler,  different materials will also exhibit different reflections with the tip of the mike, different distance for the tip of the mike related to the surround material will also play a huge role ). Only considering all of the above one could imagine how correct combination is probably incredibly difficult to strike. Then add a different shape and size of the pinna, hair on it, then properties of hair surrounding the ear itself and finally properties of the skin. Seriously complicated would be an understatement.
   Well either way Hans is correct, what really maters is how they sound to the listener and I can tell already they really don't seem to sound the same for all, that's a shame. Ideal set should sound great for all, just a dream for now but what could stop us from achieving such dream? My answer is nothing, we just have to keep on working!

AZ - can you let me know which set of pads you prefer subjectively with the stock PM-2 and why.  My recollection is that Marv prefers the Alt PM1 pads and Tyll prefers the original Leather PM1 pads with the PM-2.  I have the stock pads, but have heard the Alt pads which I do think I prefer (it being acknowledged that my audio memory is not the best). But I haven't had the chance to listen to them with the original PM-1 leather pads.

Also, please keep me posted if/when you will start modding pre-owned PM-2s.
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AZ

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2015, 07:37:03 AM »


BTW Alex, Tyll's plots exhibit a higher variation due to head coupler Vs a flat baffle coupler. What I read from those plots and commentary is that differences between pads exist. But these changes r not mind blowing.


I didn't really want to go deep into this but the whole measurement subject just keeps on bugging me, no measurement rig is perfect but maybe this could help us understand a few things just a little bit better.
   I did one experiment with the original PM-1s where FR was DSPd to perfection using measurements from only one driver for building a single filter to be applied for both left and right drivers. Then I built two separate filters based on the measurements of both drivers. The difference between those filters as you can probably imagine was around 0.5db in a couple of places. Then I listened to both and could clearly identify the differences in back to back testing where dual filter always sounded just a bit better.
   Please bare in mind I didn't have to take the cans off, it was just a matter of hitting one button to hear the instant change. This slight difference was verified by other people of different age groups (so much for a theory of humans not hearing differences less the 3db). Suppose when it comes to music we can hear all the finer details much better.
    When we start talking about 5db differences between the pads in few places I just go really, there is a BIG difference for me! With all the mods I fight real hard for each half of a db so when there is a measurement showing no difference between neither the pads nor between my PMx2 and original OPPOs of course I go WTF!   
   If you look closer at the Tyll's measurements of HD-600 and PM-1 you will see that both cans go head to head at 2.7Khz while for example your measurements exhibit a difference of about 5db between them in that particular area. Let's go further, there is about 10db difference between the aforementioned cans at the 5Khz point on Tyll's measurements while it is only 5db on yours. There is also approximately 5db difference at 7Khz between 600s and PM-1s on Tyll's rig and pretty much zero on yours. Then everything goes back in sync by somewhere around 9Khz.
   Those facts lead me to an assumption that lots of detail in that neighborhood within the aforementioned 5db range is somehow goes missing or misinterpreted. I attribute it to the acoustical properties of the foam used which either absorbs what normally gets reflected or the proper pressure simply isn't created within such coupler at those particular frequencies which makes driver act a bit different.
   Now please look at Tyll's measurements of the same HD-600 vs PM-1 and notice how different they are below 100Hz while on your graphs they are incredibly similar and in fact HD-600 does even a bit better.
   Somewhere in the other treads I already mentioned just how many bad tricks measurement rigs could play with you in the midrange. Please compare my measurements of the PM-1s vs HD-600s with those from Tyll as well, I couldn't find any serious discrepancies but maybe someone else can. I actually was very much surprised finding out how they correlate so well as never before today did I ever do such comparisons. Does this mean my rig is as accurate as the one Tyll uses? I don't know as I don't believe in HATS compensation algorithms therefore such a match could be a bad sign, who knows?
   Once again no measurement rig is perfect but this doesn't mean we should stop looking for one. Darin just sent me a link on some very intere sting research done by solderdude which brings even more questions to the table: http://www.mediafire.com/view/ac2017rapds7y0c/test_rig_tests.pdf
   As for the listening impressions; I very much appreciate your honesty and what you hear makes perfect sense. You like both the original PM-1 and PM-2s so it could be safe to assume they press most if not all of your personal buttons so well that something else even if it's different from the originals just won't do much for you. You will surely hear some major differences like those in bass, high frequency extension and resolution but that would understandably still seem fairly insignificant.
   Then take me or Hans or Marv, we all didn't like the original PM-1s all that much and so both Hans and I started modifying them right away while Marv found himself more satisfied with PM-2 using alternative pads (which for all I know could have been cherrypicked as I myself have experienced a much different sounding and measuring PM-1 unit of a reference grade).
   I suspect Marv is getting his loaner PM-2s back soon so if he can find time to do a comparo that would hopefully clarify a few more points. In the mean time I will plan for a loaner program so hopefully those who have the original PM-1s and PM-2s could also chime in with their own impressions.
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AZ

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2015, 07:55:02 AM »

AZ - can you let me know which set of pads you prefer subjectively with the stock PM-2 and why.  My recollection is that Marv prefers the Alt PM1 pads and Tyll prefers the original Leather PM1 pads with the PM-2.  I have the stock pads, but have heard the Alt pads which I do think I prefer (it being acknowledged that my audio memory is not the best). But I haven't had the chance to listen to them with the original PM-1 leather pads.

Also, please keep me posted if/when you will start modding pre-owned PM-2s.

   Sorry but I don't like any of those pads. For me it's either all or nothing but if you were to put a gun to my head with PM-2 I would probably pick the original leather one (they would still sound limp-dick, flat, boring and non resolving to me). As you already mentioned Tyll prefers original leather, Marv alternative leather, Hans I know liked velour the most while Ultra I suppose doesn't mind either so there you have it ;-). There is also a difference in FR between drivers in one set as well as between different sets which in my experience could significantly affect how different sets couple with different pads. Then there is your own priorities, see how differently Hans and Ultra perceived my two sets which by the way measured pretty much exactly the same, so.... I don't know but this HF business doesn't seem to be all that simple ;-).
   To your last question, yes I will.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 05:26:32 PM by AZ »
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ultrabike

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2015, 05:38:11 PM »

...

I'm talking about differences in measurement systems using a head simulator given the simulated ear shape:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/expert-tests-innerfidelitys-headphone-measurement-repeatability-and-reproducibility

These issues should be less significant in a rig such as yours and mine.

As far as what I like, I do like the Oppo cans, but I don't think they are that great either. I find most of them a little too laid back in balance and the mids seem to suffer from grain. While I did like your modifications, I did not feel they made a significant impact in those problem areas. In other words, the PMX2s still suffer from some misgivings inherited from the Oppo original cans. That's my opinion though.
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Hands

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Re: AZ's modded PM-2s
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2015, 06:15:08 PM »

Hey, Ultra, aside from that one particular track you mentioned earlier (unless it's the best example), do you have a track that really highlights the grainy mids on the OPPOs for you? I'd like to see if I can hear what you're referring to compared to my HD650. My tracks might not be highlighting that area, as I hear most everything as smoother on the PMx2. Might also just be me listening for something different or not being sensitive to things you may be.

I know the OPPOs are relatively insensitive to seal (personally, I feel they're less sensitive to placement than they are less sensitive to seal), and I'd like to move away from the measurement rig discussion, but I would be curious to see what results you get from a less leaky baffle/coupler for shits and giggles.
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