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Author Topic: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!  (Read 8915 times)

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anetode

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 05:51:20 PM »

Something like this would be extra neat -

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery.htm

That guy has interesting designs and commentary. Something like http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-D.htm would be epic. Problem is that getting a complex cabinet made is a non-trivial endeavor. I for one can't get the woodwork done, but I have friends who own an autoparts company who could make all the panels out of metal. It would be interesting to see how to adjust a speaker design to accommodate the change in materials, even if you're tripling the overall weight.
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Hroðulf

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 06:24:31 PM »

Steel would allow you to omit much of the bracing, if thick enough. I've seen some guys using granite and the reports are good. Improved cabinet rigidity usually improves the sound in bass reflex and sealed enclosures. That said pretty good rigidity can be attained by thick and well braced MDF.

Actually if you leave out the bracing a smaller cabinet can be made with the same internal volume.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 07:41:34 PM »

Responding to the questions:

Room size? 12' x 12'

What are your priorities? Stage? Resolution? Dynamics? Even / smooth FR? Precision? Bass extension and power? Prefer neutral tonal character leaning towards the darker side. Slight warmth over coldness or sharpness. Good articulation in the lower frequencies. Realism is more important than resolution or transparency for me. Marginally recessed treble is okay. Natural and neutral midrange. Extended and deep bass. Viscerality would be great but guessing it might be a no-go given my restrictions. Deep soundstage would be ideal but understand if this isn't possible.

Thought the ICEpower by W4S was okay but in general I prefer Class A amps too from a pure transparency perspective. $10k max for the entire rig. Of course would prefer to stay closer to the $5k range but if going higher opens up noticeably better options, I'm all for it. Open to any amping suggestions. Again the Duntech Sovereigns are my favorite speakers I've ever heard, so if there is anything realistic for a mini/junior rig, would love a decent facsimile.

Square rooms are not great, because the equal distances can create really problematic bass response. http://artsites.ucsc.edu/ems/Music/tech_background/TE-02/modes/Modes.html With good placement and a bit of treatment though, you can try to get the room to work with you, at least to a degree. Some will suggest placing the speakers diagonally, but in my own experience, that usually doesn't work brilliantly. Instead, I would start by trying the 5/8 formula - for every 8" you have the speakers in from the front wall, move them 5" in from the side walls. So if they are exactly 3 feet from the front wall, they should be about 22.5" in from the side walls. This is just a jumping off point, but it'll at least give you an idea of where to start. From there, you can experiment with small movements here or there, and the amount of toe-in.

Since the speakers are going to be pretty close to the side walls, if you can, try putting RPG style diffusers at the first reflection points. Most people put absorption panels there, but with very close sidewall placements, diffusers can actually provide much smoother response and better imaging. With the front wall you can experiment a bit. Going full on LEDE (live end, dead end) would mean more diffusers behind the speakers, which might help add some depth to the sound. Because of the bad room ratio though, absorption may be better, or you could try a panel with a scatter plate on the front to get a bit of both.

Aside from that, TRAP TRAP TRAP. If you opt for speakers with any real low bass response, it's gonna be messy. Floor to ceiling tri-traps in the corners are your friends, and you can add scatter plates to the ones in the front of the room. If that's not going to work, you can mount tri-traps where the walls meet the ceiling which won't reduce any floor space. If possible, set your listening position at an equilateral triangle between the speakers.   

Looking on Audiogon at floorstanders, there are a couple of pairs of KEF Reference 205/2s for sale at $6500/pr. 43.5 x 11.2 x 17 so not humongous, 72lbs. each so definitely not outrageously heavy either. Usable bass into the high 30s, but being KEF there's not going to be tons of it, just tight and accurate bass. I didn't love the prior Reference series, but the Uni-Q driver used in the /2 series was a big improvement. I don't know that I would pay the o riginal $14K list, but at $6K, really not a bad deal at all.

There's also a 203/2 for $5500, which uses two 6.5" woofs instead of the two 8s in the 205. If you went that route, you'd give up about 5Hz or so of extension.

At the same price as the 203/2 is a pair of PMC EB1is. They are up there with ATC as some of Britain's very best. Heavier than the KEFs at around 105lbs. They are more sensitive though and should be Class A friendly. Thanks to the signature PMC transmission line cabinet, they have bass, bass and more bass. We're talking 20Hz. They can definitely work with close wall placements, but you'll have to get the room response under control.

Monitor wise and starting at the top, there's a pair of NOLA Micro Grands for $8600. I know the price is really pushing it, but they are some of the best speakers I've ever heard. Just magical. There's a whole bunch of Dynaudio Confidence C1 monitors for around $5K, but I'm not sure you'll be happy with them. Imaging, detail, etc are all fantastic, but they don't do bass. Even the huge Confidence C4 runs out of breath in the 40Hz region. Other than that, I don't currently see anything hugely exciting.

On the new market, the prices of Living Voice speakers have shot up, so they're not the values they once were. The Auditorium R3 may still be worth an audition though, and as with all LV models, it's VERY Class A friendly.

When it comes to getting a lot for your money though, factory direct speaker companies are the way to go. Tylers don't have the sound signature that you're looking for, but I would highly recommend taking a look at Daedalus. The Muse is within your price range, lightweight, not too big, VERY efficient as all DA speakers are, (96dB/W/m) and -2dB at 34Hz. It's close wall and small room friendly, being a floor standing outgrowth of the Pan monitor that Daedalus developed as a nearfield/midfield monitor. And those cabinets, yowza. You'll find no MDF in a Daedalus. Just solid, gorgeous wood. I think Lou may still be offering them at the introductory $6450 price.

Another VERY interesting new entry is Vapor Sound's Derecho, which I'm dying to get a chance to hear. It's basically a floorstanding Cirrus, and starts at $7895.

If those are too steep, then definitely check out Odyssey's Kismet, the Philharmonic Audio Slim, and Ascend's Sierra Tower which are just $2600/pr with the RAAL tweeter option.

Most of these guys would probably work with your First Watt, the LV and DA definitely would, but if you're in the market for a new amp, I would snap up the Valvet A3.5 monos on Audiogon. They are the size of ICEpower monos, but they output 50W of Class A. One of my very favorite amps, and they can probably be upgraded to the current MKII status.

IMO ICEpower is the worst of a bad bunch. UcD based amps like the Spectron Musician are better, but as I said I would take just about any good Class A/B amp over all of them. The only ones I've seen that may be able to elevate Class D beyond mid-fi status are the Hypex Ncore based amps, and as far as I'm aware, those are all still close to 5 figures in price, or above.


« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 08:06:07 PM by DaveBSC »
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Elysian

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 10:37:21 PM »

You guys are amazing! I have a lot more to read up on, and have begun looking at reviews of the ATC SCM40 and KEF 205/2s. The price range is right for used, and you've also given me some other notes to look at such as woofer size, which I had no idea about. Poor bass articulation is a big pet peeve of mine so it looks like a 8" or 10" is mandatory for me. Even though I don't listen to music very loudly, I still like having that cleanness, especially in the low registers extending up into the midrange.

Thanks for the detailed notes on spacing, too, Dave. Given me some things to look at once I start rearranging furniture and such.

General question about Duntech/Dunlavy. I love Duntech so I figure the family of Duntech/Dunlavy speakers would be a safe place for me to do a quick search, to see if there is anything that fits my needs.

Would it be a bad idea to consider putting something like the Duntech Princess into a 12' x 12' listening space? On the bright side, it doesn't weigh too much, as my old CRT TV weighs over 200lb with the stand, so a 145lb/ea speaker cabinet should be fine. I have no idea if it would be too much for such a small space, though, unless TRAPing the room would help. I actually kind of like the visuals of having those dampening things on the walls and such so it doesn't bother me aesthetically. The Princesses are hard to find so I'm not sure where I'd begin, but given how much I love the Sovereign, I wonder if starting a step below with the Princess might just be plenty for me? I figure I'd definitely need a new amp, though.

http://www.duntech.com.au/english/products/classic-series/princess.html

anetode: I was considering the Magnepan 3.7 too, but given what a pain in the butt the Mini Maggies are in positioning to sound just perfect, if the larger Magnepans are as demanding, I think I'll probably just aim for listening to someone else's Magnepan setup someday.
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Marvey

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2014, 02:20:02 AM »

I think you would be OK with the princess since the WMTMW arrangement runs tightly spaced over middle area of the total height of the speaker. It's a tall speaker, so it could look ridiculous in a small room, so really it's just a matter of you caring whether people think you are weird or not. I've seen people put Wilsons in small rooms, so nothing wrong with doing that.


The question really is if they are designed to be placed away from a wall several feet* like in Dave's diagram (I suspect so) and if this will be an issue.


*Or if the speaker designer has implemented baffle compensation dial for flexibility on close to wall or away from wall placement. At 90db efficiency, you'll be OK with 20 watts in a small room.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 02:55:25 AM by marvey »
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DaveBSC

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2014, 02:39:09 AM »

General question about Duntech/Dunlavy. I love Duntech so I figure the family of Duntech/Dunlavy speakers would be a safe place for me to do a quick search, to see if there is anything that fits my needs.

Would it be a bad idea to consider putting something like the Duntech Princess into a 12' x 12' listening space? On the bright side, it doesn't weigh too much, as my old CRT TV weighs over 200lb with the stand, so a 145lb/ea speaker cabinet should be fine. I have no idea if it would be too much for such a small space, though, unless TRAPing the room would help.

http://www.duntech.com.au/english/products/classic-series/princess.html

anetode: I was considering the Magnepan 3.7 too, but given what a pain in the butt the Mini Maggies are in positioning to sound just perfect, if the larger Magnepans are as demanding, I think I'll probably just aim for listening to someone else's Magnepan setup someday.

Before you make a final decision, I would really recommend hitting an audio show like THE or RMAF to get an idea of what's out there, and see if there's anything that really strikes your fancy. It's been many many years since I've heard a Dunlavy, but from vague memory, they were very picky about placement, and if you weren't in the perfect sweet spot, the entire illusion collapsed. Speakers like the KEF and Daedalus OTOH are pretty easy to position, and with the KEFs even toe-in isn't that critical. You pretty much set them up and they sound good, the rest is tweaking.

My guess is that the Princess might over power your space, but it's hard to say, I'm really not familiar with them at all.

I definitely would not recommend Magnepan for your space. Very bitchy about placement, and they aren't going to like being up against the walls either. That goes for dipoles in general, you really need more room for those than you've got.

There is one other guy that I forgot to mention though, the Audio Kinesis Jazz Module. It's a constant directivity horn paired with a 10" alnico driver. The bass response is user adjustable like the KEF Ref which allows for close placement to the front wall, and the design is intended for extreme toe-in with the drivers actually crossing in front of the listening position in order to minimize sidewall reflections. If you've got less than 2' to the side walls, that might be a very good thing.

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thegunner100

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2014, 03:14:56 AM »

Although everything here is way out of my price range, this is some really great info.
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Elysian

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2014, 04:03:47 PM »

Yeah... I was wondering, even with the WMTMW arrangement, if it'd be advisable to get a cut piece of wood from the hardware store to put the speaker on top of, rather than setting directly on carpet. I'm assuming that's only to help the weight distribution on the floor?

A 6' tall speaker will likely look somewhat ridiculous in a small room but I'm totally okay with it looking weird as long as it sounds good. As far as placement, I managed to find two older posts on other forums discussing spacing. One person recommended 16-18' minimum in general for Duntechs, while another person said they were managing fine in a 12-14' space but still needed to place about 2' feet away from the wall.

I'll definitely try to find an audio show to listen to. I'm a bit concerned that since I'm so unfamiliar with speakers, meet conditions will be misrepresentative for me since my ears aren't tuned for speakers like they are for headphones. The KEFs look really attractive, and I do think the Daedalus still has the introductory pricing going on. Didn't know whether speakers have the DIY bang-for-buck that headphone community DIY stuff does.

Good to hear the Magnepan issues with space and positioning extends up into the higher-end line, just like the Mini Maggies. The Mini Maggies were really nice, even with music with a lot of low-end (Massive Attack) with the support of a sub, but they didn't sound special at all unless you were sitting in that perfect space. Even moving your head a bit would collapse the illusion.

A few more questions I'm hoping one of you guys might know:

- Any experience with Emerald Physics? The CS2.3 MK2 has custom 15" woofers! It has rave reviews but I don't know anyone personally who has listened to them. I do like how the dealer is Underwood Hifi, as I've had a solid buying experience from him.

- What's the advantage of a floorstanding vs. speaker on a stand? I'm assuming that one of those big, heavy floorstanding speakers, in general will have much better dynamics and presence?

- Are there any more affordable Wilsons that are worth consideration ($5-10k), or would be comparable to the Duntechs? There's a local WATT Puppy 6 for asking $7k.

- What kind of sound do horn speakers have?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:21:48 PM by Elysian »
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k3oxkjo

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2014, 04:08:24 PM »

A lot of interesting (and some very exotic) recommendations here. Just to throw a couple of cents in, I would recommend to check out: 

Ayre AX-7c integrated amplifier. Excellent sound (especially for solid-state), will accommodate single ended or balanced inputs, remote controlled (of course), enough power for a small/medium room with the vast majority of speakers, not difficult to find dealers. I heard this with the CX-7e driving both Vandersteen Trio and B&W PM-1 loudspeakers to wonderful effect.

The Trio's are probably a bit out of your price range (don't rule out the current iteration of the Vandersteen 2 or 3) and some people have a bit of reverse snobbism about Vandersteen, but they really are good speakers at reasonable price points, well worth checking out and would seem to meet your preferences.

The B&W PM-1 is a bit more of a "specialist" loudspeaker, it is a small monitor not suitable for very large rooms, for people who listen very loud or expect the deepest of deep bass, but is quite extraordinary in what it CAN do. And for it's size, it does make a credible stab at bass. A bit warm, VERY good with transients and clean and clear with very little blurring and excellent soundstaging. I have the little KEF LS-50 monitors that are excellent in their own right, but I suspect that overall the PM-1's are better. Hopefully, I will get some listening time to the PM-1 at home at some point to verify this.

I like Magnepans, but I don't think they would be good in your small square room. Salk Sound and Vapor Sound are two companies that sell factory direct and sounded good at the shows, but you can't audition them in advance generally.

You might look for a pair of Audio Note AN-E on the used market (you will have to do some research, there are many iterations of these out there) as they are designed to go in to the corners (if you can make space there). I had a pair of these in a room similar to yours and liked them very much. They are fairly efficient and they even make the room seem bigger by not being out in it. More of a beautiful sound than a strictly accurate one, (but not wildly inaccurate to be sure) but a quite nice speaker to just sit back and enjoy music with.

If you are looking for a quite tonally accurate speaker, look for a used pair of Spendor SP-1 or SP1/2. These are large stand mounts and excel, especially on vocals with bass that is good down into the 40 hz area (in my mind, as low as I would risk in a small room, others disagree with this but getting deep bass right in a small room is not at all easy).

Just a few more thoughts for your quest. Good luck!
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DaveBSC

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Re: Getting Into Speakers, Help Please!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2014, 10:13:12 PM »

Yeah... I was wondering, even with the WMTMW arrangement, if it'd be advisable to get a cut piece of wood from the hardware store to put the speaker on top of, rather than setting directly on carpet. I'm assuming that's only to help the weight distribution on the floor?

I'll definitely try to find an audio show to listen to. I'm a bit concerned that since I'm so unfamiliar with speakers, meet conditions will be misrepresentative for me since my ears aren't tuned for speakers like they are for headphones. The KEFs look really attractive, and I do think the Daedalus still has the introductory pricing going on. Didn't know whether speakers have the DIY bang-for-buck that headphone community DIY stuff does.

- Any experience with Emerald Physics? The CS2.3 MK2 has custom 15" woofers! It has rave reviews but I don't know anyone personally who has listened to them. I do like how the dealer is Underwood Hifi, as I've had a solid buying experience from him.

- What's the advantage of a floorstanding vs. speaker on a stand? I'm assuming that one of those big, heavy floorstanding speakers, in general will have much better dynamics and presence?

- Are there any more affordable Wilsons that are worth consideration ($5-10k), or would be comparable to the Duntechs? There's a local WATT Puppy 6 for asking $7k.

- What kind of sound do horn speakers have?

Unless you have really weak floors for some reason, the kind of floors that a person would fall through if they walked on them, weight distribution doesn't matter. There are two reasons to put something under your speakers - 1. they aren't tall enough to have the tweeters at optimal ear height (can't imagine that's an issue with Duntechs) and 2. you want to decouple them from the floor.

There is no consensus as to whether coupling (spikes) or decoupling (platforms) sounds better. It may be up to the individual speaker. If you are going to try decoupling though, I would opt for something like edenSound Terrastone platforms rather than a plank of wood from the hardware store. You want something that's going to act as a vibration sink, not exacerbate vibrations.

If not an audio show, I would at least recommend going to a big dealer with several speaker brands and a good auditioning space. If they are ok with letting you sit there for hours, that can actually be more informative than an audio show, where a lot of the demos can be full of people so you can't get a good seat, or they won't let you play your own music and they only play solo vocalists/gregorian chants/audiophile crap that sounds good on anything, or they actually make good stuff and are nice folks, but they got stuck with such a bad room that they just can't make it work. I've experienced all three plenty of times.

Just keep in mind that with some rare exceptions like 10audio and a few others, almost all reviews both online and in magazines range from really positive to really positive. I spent a good 2 hours at least with a pair of $90K JMLab Grande Utopia Bes, trying to figure out why Robert Harley et all thought these things were so good. I never found it. After hearing several more JMLabs models at various price points, I discovered that the brand is all hype. There's no there there.

It just sounds to me like you're ready to buy a Camry because you've driven a Camry. There are a lot of cars out there and just as many reviews, but there's no substitute for getting behind the wheel.

The tagline for Emerald Physics speakers is basically & quot;put them anywhere, let the DSP handle it." That's bullshit. The active EQ and DSP correction is certainly more effective than say Audssey on an A/V receiver, but the principle is the same. You can fix peaks a hell of a lot better than you can deal with suckouts, and ultimately you still can't fight the laws of physics. You can listen to to EP speakers two or three feet from the walls, but I really wouldn't recommend that you do it. From about 900Hz on up they are monopoles, but the rest is dipolar, and that means floor space for the best results.

Simply put, floorstanding speakers give you more space inside your cabinet, which buys you more bass extension, and of course gives you more space to stick drivers which can also buy you more extension and more impact. Usually from somewhere around 250Hz on up though, the speaker crosses over to its midrange driver, which are generally 5-6.5" and from there up, there is no longer any advantage to having that big cabinet. There disadvantages though, mainly to do with interaction by the cabinet itself on the drivers. Bass frequencies are omni-directional. If a speaker has all of its drivers facing forward, the bass will fire from the front of the cabinet and wrap around the sides and head towards the front wall (and everywhere else). As the frequencies rise, the focus becomes narrower and narrower, but much of the response is still interacting with the cabinet. If there's just a stand there and no cabinet, there's less interaction, which gives less of a "boxy" effect to the sound.

There's something called the "disappearing act," where speakers disappear as obvious sources of sound. Small monitor speakers are generally much better at disappearing than big floorstanders, and if your top priority is lifelike imaging/soundstaging, that's probably the way you should go. You'll just have to sacrifice the stuff below around 50Hz, which you can put back with subwoofers. Subs in small square rooms are a total nightmare, but by using several of them in strategic positions combined with DSP in addition to bass traps, you can get something approaching even bass response.

Wilsons, eh. Not a fan.

If you want to know what most horn speakers sound like, cup your hands around your mouth and sing a song. A lot of them are one-trick ponies, they are hyper efficient at a cost of basically sounding like crap. Getting around that "cupped hands" problem requires really good horn design, and there are a select few that qualify, and most of those cost anywhere from buckets to boat loads of cash.

Audio Kinesis is one of the VERY few at reasonable prices that I like. The Jazz Module is $4500/pr.
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