CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:08:14 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic: Getting a dedicated line for gear?  (Read 3211 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2014, 06:30:52 AM »

The audible hum I am talking about is from the actual transformer in the physical device itself and has NO influence on the audio signal.
Certain input filters (common mode coils) in some SMPS may also 'buzz' a little louder with DC on it but is very rare.
In all these cases I am talking about sounds from the actual devices NOT in the audio signal.

The DC blocker MAY only help when the device itself (amplifier for instance) sometimes hums louder than than other times.
It should be noted that in the evening our hearing sensitivity increases (a muscle in the ear relaxes which works as an auto-gain) so sometimes transformers may appear to hum louder in the wee hours.

IF the hum is coming from the speakers/headphone a DC blocker isn't going to help and you MAY be plagued by common mode or leakage currents.
Quite common when connecting PC's with audio systems.

Start with only connecting the amplifier to mains and speakers/HP and connecting the previous devices one by one and listen when the hum is introduced.
If it appears then it is the COMBINATION of those devices, most likely the way they are connected, that is the culprit.

It may be a design error in one of the devices or the power supply that leaks currents or a combination.
The same setup may not have the same problems (or be below the audible threshold) for other people.

You could try to plug individual mainscords 180degrees rotated (if the system allows this) which in some cases lowers or removes these problems.

When equipment buzzes (in a specefic tone) for just a few seconds and 1 or more times a day (often on the same time of day) it may be control tones that cause this.
These are sometimes audible in the audio signal as well.
This is also caused by incorrect 'loading' of the mains somewhere (may be well outside the house)
Also in this case rotating individual mains plugs 180 degrees in the wall sockets may sometimes 'cure' or reduce this.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:58:33 AM by Solderdude »
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

ohhgourami

  • Bad at NDAs
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +129/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 07:30:02 AM »

I do hear a hum through my amp during the wee hours, but that hum is normal as it is the noise floor. The noise I hear is more of a buzzing/clicking.

The PC's PSU has an audible buzz from the physical device while the amp is giving off the buzz on the audio signal. I've also tried turning off my PC, DAC, pre, and amp during the phenomenon and I think even with only my amp on I can still hear the buzz through the audio signal. I'll have to try to turn off my PC again to make sure.

I think my PC's PSU and amp are particularly sensitive to some sort of change in the power. I know nothing else in the shared power line is being changed when this happens.

I don't understand what you mean by rotating the mains plugs by 180 degrees.
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 08:04:32 AM »

I do hear a hum through my amp during the wee hours, but that hum is normal as it is the noise floor. The noise I hear is more of a buzzing/clicking.

this MAY indicate common mode or leakage currents somewhere in the chain or a PCB/wiring/ground 'error' in the amplifier design.

The PC's PSU has an audible buzz from the physical device while the amp is giving off the buzz on the audio signal. I've also tried turning off my PC, DAC, pre, and amp during the phenomenon and I think even with only my amp on I can still hear the buzz through the audio signal. I'll have to try to turn off my PC again to make sure.

To see where this problem comes from you also need to disconnect the interlinks.
A device that is switched off may not be off at all, just merely in standby.
removing power cords and interlinks is the only proper way to locate such a problem.

I don't understand what you mean by rotating the mains plugs by 180 degrees.

European power plugs, for instance, can be inserted in the wall socket in 2 directions.
Live wire of mains could thus be present on the 'neutral' pin of the device OR on the 'Live' pin.
In other parts of the world the orientation of the plug is 'fixed' by the ground pin so you cannot insert the mains plug 'upside down'.
So you may not be able to rotate a plug 180 degrees and insert it in the mains socket depending on where you live.
In that case you are 'dependent' on the guy that installed the wall sockets/made the extension cord/block and or the knowledge of the gear manufacturer regarding this issue.
I can assure you some manufacturers/DIYers have no clue.

Depending on the device a leakage current may be higher in one orientation compared to the other.

One way to find out is to connect a device (stand alone so NOTHING but mains connected) and switch it on and rub your finger across a metal frontplate. If you 'feel' your finger sort-off bouncing or vibrating and it feels different when unplugged from mains that device has some leakage which MAY become audible in some audio devices.
Some equipment has a certain 'preference' for L and N to be connected correctly and in this case the rubbing 'feels' different, more like when disconnected from mains.
Of course equipment with a figure 8 mains plug can be easily 'reversed' as are european plugs (not so for French grounded plugs).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 08:31:35 AM by Solderdude »
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

Mr.Sneis

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +21/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 267
  • DSD DXD Hi Rez BBQ 32 bits omg give me moar
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 06:16:59 PM »

I do hear a hum through my amp during the wee hours, but that hum is normal as it is the noise floor. The noise I hear is more of a buzzing/clicking.

The PC's PSU has an audible buzz from the physical device while the amp is giving off the buzz on the audio signal. I've also tried turning off my PC, DAC, pre, and amp during the phenomenon and I think even with only my amp on I can still hear the buzz through the audio signal. I'll have to try to turn off my PC again to make sure.

I think my PC's PSU and amp are particularly sensitive to some sort of change in the power. I know nothing else in the shared power line is being changed when this happens.

I don't understand what you mean by rotating the mains plugs by 180 degrees.

I'm telling you... modern PSU's, motherboards, and video cards have changed in production and this is referred to as coil whine.  It's super common and doesn't seem to be getting any better.  You can try out different video cards or PSU's or motherboards but it's going to drive you insane.

What he means by rotating the plug is to flip it upside down, not possible if it's a three prong plug or if one plug is larger than the other, in which case you can use/make a cheater plug.  But it's probably not going to make a lick of a difference.

If you are hearing the noise on your speakers/headphones you can also isolate the amp itself IE no sources connected to the amp to troubleshoot.  USB line noise from the PC sounds terrible and is easily audible in the chain.
Logged

fishski13

  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +79/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2014, 08:37:19 PM »

i had conduit throughout in my previous house.  since the wiring acts like an antenna, having a shield connected to ground may be of some benefit.

my hi-fi room sat above the breaker box.  i squirreled the Krell amp power cord and separate power strip for the digitals through a return vent into two different dedicated Furutech outlets on separate 20A breakers.  i thought it made a difference.   

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/fishski13/050.jpg
Logged

johnjen

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +10/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Sonicus Blasticus
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2014, 01:54:37 AM »

One source of 'noise' are 'old' or damaged power strips with spike suppression that has already suppressed one too many spikes.


These plug in strips are nearly invisible in that we can all to often take them for granted.
When the MOV's or transzorbs give all (or even some of their all), they can then become noise sources.  And they add their noise right at the end of the distribution system, into the neutral and ground, right where we plug in our other gear.


Some of these plug in strips have 'replace me' indicators, but that doesn't mean it always helps.  Others (usually the cheaper ones) have no such indication.


There are also cheap house lighting dimmers that spew spurious harmonic noise when they are not full on, (when actually dimming the lighting load) as well as the electronic temperature controls for stoves and ovens, etc.


And sometimes just tightening up the screw clamps coming out of each circuit breaker can make a difference.  They can and do loosen up after repeated thermal cycles.  Also you can pull the wire out from the circuit breaker and make sure it isn't corroded before you tighten that circuit breaker screw clamp back down.


And lastly although there are the main feeder cable clamps for the power cables, both the 2 phases AND the neutral line that connects up to the ground buss should be tightened/checked as well.
These circuits are VERY DANGEROUS and should only be messed with by those who know what and how to do so. 


Electrocution is possible for ANY of the above, take appropriate cautionary measures.


Lastly is the ground that is being used by the panel itself.  Some household grounds are in poor shape and so the neutral lead from the pole plays a major role in providing a 'stable' ground.  This usually doesn't work very well as the ground from the pole is more directly modulated by the rest of the power distribution from its step down transformer.


One simple test is to measure the dc and ac voltage and frequency riding between neutral and ground at any power outlet.  It is best when all of the equipment remains plugged in and the voltage is tested while the equipment is both on and off.
This test does require decent a DVM and knowledge about what are acceptable readings.  But suffice to say the voltages found between ground and neutral should be small and stable.  If you have access to more sophisticated test equipment (scopes, power meters, frequency analyzers etc.) these can shed additional insights into the electrical environment.


Also some electricians are less 'sensitive' to the needs of an especially 'quiet' power distribution system.  They are used to dealing with high voltage circuits, not low voltage situations where even 1 volt riding on top of the neutral line can be a killer for tweako audio systems.


Just a few thoughts


JJ
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:16:15 AM by johnjen »
Logged
PWD-II w/bridge (lightly modded) - Schiit Ragnarok - The Rok (lightly modded) - HD-800 SAA modded, balanced & hardwired
Shunyata Python & α-Digital & Anaconda XLR - AudioQuest Coffee - Wyrd Schiit - 'Other' cables & Tweaks aplenty
Schiit Mojo (retired for now)

ohhgourami

  • Bad at NDAs
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +129/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2014, 06:06:52 PM »

I'm telling you... modern PSU's, motherboards, and video cards have changed in production and this is referred to as coil whine.  It's super common and doesn't seem to be getting any better.  You can try out different video cards or PSU's or motherboards but it's going to drive you insane.

What he means by rotating the plug is to flip it upside down, not possible if it's a three prong plug or if one plug is larger than the other, in which case you can use/make a cheater plug.  But it's probably not going to make a lick of a difference.

If you are hearing the noise on your speakers/headphones you can also isolate the amp itself IE no sources connected to the amp to troubleshoot.  USB line noise from the PC sounds terrible and is easily audible in the chain.


I guess there isn't much I can do about it then...
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2014, 06:48:00 PM »


I guess there isn't much I can do about it then...

There may be a lot you can do about it but you will have to isolate the problem first.
I have outlined the steps in my previous post.

First see if your amp shows the problem without it being connected to anything else but speakers/headphone.
Then connect the next item etc.
So find out when the problem occurs and under which conditions.
From there on you can look for a solution.

IF it only happens occasionally and in a very short time frame you need to find out when that is.
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

ohhgourami

  • Bad at NDAs
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +129/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 393
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 03:38:04 AM »



Just got home from work and turned on my PC and the PSU immediately start buzzing, which means time to turn on my amp to see if I can hear it through my headphones - yup and mostly through the left channel (consistent with previous observations). Turned off the PC and I can still hear the buzz/clicking through my headphones.

With my PC still off, I disconnected the interconnects and the buzzing stays but is centered. Tried disconnecting and reconnecting the interconnects in different order - same thing. Connected is shifted to left channel buzz; disconnected is centered buzz.

Now I tried unplugging the power on preamp and DAC, same thing.

And I'm pretty sure my neighbor's AC was running too.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:57:51 AM by ohhgourami »
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 05:10:29 AM »

If you are on a good relation with your neighbour try to get him to switch it on and off while you are listening or keep it on while you are testing.
When this is indeed the problem it is time to find out what is causing it (pollution or DC on the AC line) and then you can take measures.

Does gear with a real traffo in it suddenly hum audibly from its enclosure at the same time ?

Does the pre-amp or DAC have a headphone out and does this hum as well ?

If the PC has it's own sound card with HP out does this hum audibly on the HP out ?

The amp hums in both channels when nothing it is not connected to anything except mains ?

Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4