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Author Topic: Getting a dedicated line for gear?  (Read 3211 times)

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Solderdude

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 07:38:08 AM »

What's so clean about a dedicated fuse and wiring ?

You guys do know that in the fuse box all wiring is connected behind the fuses and thus and from the on the mains is coming over 1 (or 2 or 3 phase groups when owning a substantial house) over large distances connecting other houses as well.

Garbage on group one is also present on group 2 (when connected to the same phase).
Proof for that can be seen in those 'wireless' mains connected LAN thingies and intercoms.

I measured the EMC garbage in houses and it's the same on any group, loaded or not.
There is even a high relation on EMC on different phases because those mains wires coming into the house run parallel for long distances and have a huge capacitance connecting EMC alike garbage this way.

If your transformers hum but only on specific times during the day (and are silent at other times) no new group is going to change ANYTHING.
You will need the DC removers I linked to earlier.

These things ONLY work on real transformers NOT on SMPS (PC and leightweight wallwarts, laptop power supplies)

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Armaegis

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 09:26:46 AM »

If I ever get a dedicated line for my (currently non-existent) massive power amps, I want the switch to be something like this...

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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin

Stapsy

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 01:11:56 PM »

That is pretty much what I was thinking Solderdude.  If it is some type of interference with your other electronics or wiring then get a dedicated line.  Since it sounds to me like this is a powerline issue, a dedicated line is just going to continue feeding your equipment the dirty power.

One question about the DC transformer.  I have been doing a lot of reading about power conditioners and it seems like transformers suck out dynamics.  No idea if it is true or not as I ended up getting a capacitor based conditioner.  If I understand correctly capacitors would be filtering and not isolating.  It works well enough for me.  It isn't perfect but it is an improvement over the cheapo powerbar I was using.

The best solution would probably be a dedicated line and power conditioning.  These aren't one size fits all solutions though. If there are issues with internal wiring and electronic cross talk causing noise, a power conditioner won't help as much as a dedicated line.  The same goes the other way if you are receiving dirty power in the first place.
 
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Solderdude

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 05:46:52 PM »

One question about the DC transformer.  I have been doing a lot of reading about power conditioners and it seems like transformers suck out dynamics.  No idea if it is true or not as I ended up getting a capacitor based conditioner.  If I understand correctly capacitors would be filtering and not isolating.  It works well enough for me.  It isn't perfect but it is an improvement over the cheapo powerbar I was using.   

I have no idea what you mean with DC transformer.
I assume you mean a regenerative UPS.
That one works on batteries (or mains fed) and generates 50/60V AC locally.

The DC on the transformer I mentioned is caused by power lines that aren't 'loaded' symmetrical between the positive and negative cycle.
For instance there may be a higher positive half of the AC linevoltage sinewave than the negative half (or vice versa) for some reason.
In that case there could be a small DC voltage on the AC power line (together with the present AC) and this magnetises the core causing it to audibly hum more in that case than normally.

So as far as I understood from the OP the equipment seems to emit more audible hum at different times during the day.
If such is the case the solution is to either use a regenerative UPS (the GOOD ones are expensive) or try the simple DC blocker circuits.
A different fuse and wiring isn't going to solve anything except fill the holes in the wallet of the electrician installing it.
That's what I am getting at.

The DC blocker circuit is not considered a 'power conditioner' but of course does change the conditions on the power line.
It only removes small DC offsets that could (but normally are never) present on AC power lines.
It can only remove DC voltages up to a few volts but more isn't needed.

Power conditioners exist in many many forms and all of them claim those of others perform badly and reduce whatnot in sound.
The word 'power conditioner' can mean many things ranging from a simple separation transformer to very complex electronic circuitry.
Some claim wonders, others say it changed nothing and all the positions one could take in the middle can be found on the web.
No improvements or (severe) sound degradation to (substantial) increase in perceived SQ can be the result with any of the given devices.

Personally I would only advise on these matters when actually visiting the place and asses what is going on (measurements of AC lines) and used equipment.

If for instance one single device 'pollutes' the AC line (because of filters or used components) and that one isn't isolated and 'contained' it really doesn't matter if you connect the lot on a power conditioned AC converter or the mains as in both cases that component will f' up that AC.

If one suspects AC in the house is giving troubles I would:
switch off as many as possible devices temporarily and switch on audio devices one by one.
Then switch on other devices in the house and try to find what is causing problems (could be a simple LED light somewhere in the house)

In countries with 110 (120V) AC the problems usually are bigger than countries with 220-240V AC as the currents drawn are 50% lower on higher mains voltage power lines.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 05:06:58 AM by Solderdude »
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Stapsy

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 10:07:17 PM »

Ok thanks, I understand what you mean (kind of).  I misread and thought you were talking about some type of DC isolation transformer.
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Mr.Sneis

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2014, 10:34:47 PM »

Do what you want, your time, money, stress.  I've been there and done it all and gained nothing from it.

I spent in the vicinity of $200 for a dedicated line with my electrician, he's a few man operation that owns his own company and I've used him now for a few years with no complaints.  The install consisted of punching two holes into my walls, one of which needs to be patched up but is in a spot that I couldn't care less about as it's in my garage.  The other hole was for the outlet.  Like I said it's most likely not going to make any difference so don't expect anything going in.

I've tried a meagbuck PS Audio regenerator and it didn't do anything useful other than blow itself up after a few months.

If there's DC on your lines I believe it can be measured with a multimeter?  From my experience I don't think I had any DC on my lines that I could find. 

Also don't forget to take your gear to another physical location and plug it in there to see if it does the exact same thing there.  Which I would be willing to bet it will.
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Armaegis

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 04:15:14 AM »

I've never really thought to measure the DC in my lines before... so I stuck a multimeter in there. Straight out of the wall, AC is 121 +/- 0.1V, and DC wobbles between +/-200mV. Off the surge protector, AC is 119 and DC wobble is the same.

Is this normal?
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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin

ohhgourami

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 04:41:00 AM »

How do I install one of those DC filters?
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Solderdude

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 05:00:55 AM »

I've never really thought to measure the DC in my lines before... so I stuck a multimeter in there. Straight out of the wall, AC is 121 +/- 0.1V, and DC wobbles between +/-200mV. Off the surge protector, AC is 119 and DC wobble is the same.

Is this normal?

Yes, some small amounts of DC component is normal.
When it reaches a volt or more some transformers MAY start to hum a bit louder than 'normal' (they all hum slightly).
For Switch(ed) Mode Power Supplies this doesn't matter.
They run on AC and/or DC voltages.

Installing is easy.
Just insert them into the AC line.
They only need to feed those devices that (sometimes) hear audibly and sometimes do not.
The rest can be fed directly from mains as usual.

They won't improve anything else, just make transformers hum less WHEN they are humming loud on certain times of day.

The DC that could be causing this can occur FAR outside your house somewhere on the mains.

P.S.
Not all multimeters indicate DC correctly (when there is AC on a line as well) and some don't like it at all and may even become defective.
Autoranging multimeters usually handle this well.
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ohhgourami

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Re: Getting a dedicated line for gear?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 05:13:36 AM »

Confirming that my PC's PSU and amp will buzz together. Seems to only affect the left channel. Only lasted for about a minute and it went away.
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