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Author Topic: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"  (Read 2645 times)

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Marvey

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Refer to this post: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1497.0.html


I'm going to turn this argument around to this: Getting a headphone which will make make the most of an amplifier / source.

The reason is this. I've got the EC 4-45 in the house, and now I'm seriously thinking I need an HD800 (modded of course). So far I've tried a bunch of headphones on the 4-45, and I'm coming away quite unsatisfied. Not that the amp is bad, but I'm getting a good sense that many of these headphones are simply not maximizing the amp's capabilities.

So instead of this tired argument "you need the right amp with the HD800" which seems to rub some people the wrong way, what about "the EC 4-45 needs the right headphone" or "needing headphone Y for amp X"?

There are quite a a few nuanced implications here which I'm not going to spell out. Let's discuss.
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ultrabike

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2014, 08:01:12 AM »

In some cases it does seem like headphones tend to be the weakest part of the rig, which perhaps could be seen as preventing some of the other components to shine.

In the end I feel we don't hear individual components, but the system as a whole. Some things should be mixed, some proly not.
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Solderdude

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2014, 09:53:03 AM »

Some observations and contemplations.

Good amps in general have very low distortion and a flat FR over the entire audible range and beyond (but appears not to matter).
They don’t react to loads too much unless limits are reached or output resistances are relatively high (a big no-no).
The specifications and performance in general are (objectively speaking) factors better than the best transducers out there.

ALL headphones out there vary at least several dB’s and all show musch higher amounts of distortion, resonances and may behave differently on amp A compared to amp B.
I put to you that ALL headphones are flawed (even the mighty HD800 and AB1266) in mechanical, electrical and acoustical sense in a far bigger way than a decent amplifier.
How about perception itself ?
It seems to me that the transducers and listener are the weakest links based on these observations.

IMO it really doesn’t matter if one seeks an amp to match a specific headphone or a has a specific amplifier and is looking for a headphone to match.  ::)
In the end it all comes down to a combo you end up with based on your philosophy.
I would even dare to say that both methods are limiting as in both cases one assumes the headphone OR amplifier is 'the best thing out there' and merely needs to be matched with the other 'best thing' to reach sonic optimality.

After all if one has a ‘best amp’ that only needs a best headphone that best amp could only be considered best if one had compared it to others with the same (or a limited number) of headphone(s).
The best combo would thus already be known as it must have past evaluation along the way.
The same is true for the opposite direction of looking at things.

Then there is also the question that when one has determined which is the best amp EVAR and best headphone EVAR (not tested in that combo) whether or not that combo will also produce the best sound EVAR ?
And to WHO will that be best sounding as preference is also important and perceived SQ is not an 'absolute truth' but an opinion that may or may not be shared with a select group of people (mostly in close proximity).
What is liked best by person A may NOT sound best to person B is what I am getting at.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 12:06:52 PM by Solderdude »
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Stapsy

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 11:19:26 AM »

I have been facing a very similar query.  My whole quest in this hobby has been maximizing the HD800.  Now with the 2A3x4 I have turned to trying to maximize the amplifier.  From a technical perspective I suppose it makes sense.  It doesn't matter how good your source/amp are, if you are listening to it through a transducer that can't accurately translate that into sound then it doesn't really matter.

I have gradually been tweaking things to try and maximize the amp design.  It started off with tubes and has now flipped to source changes.  Currently I am using my CLAS-db with the ASIO driver to bypass the usb on my Anedio D2 and it has made a substantial improvement.  It is strange because if I use the CLAS as a DAC, it really sounds closed in and shitty.  I have a CD transport (hopefully) coming in and I will have a chance to substitute the OR5 for the CLAS next week.  I am also getting some HE5 hopefully next week, partially because I want to see how the x4 does with them.  There is no doubt that my vintage RS2 and Stap modded t50rp are not up to the quality of the amp, though it has made them sound a heck of a lot better.

I guess I just always had the same feeling you have about maximizing the amplifier, though generally my focus has been on my source holding back the amp as opposed to headphone X.  That is entirely based on personal perception and my subjective listening when tweaking and testing my own gear.

The odd thing is, I felt that the 2A3mk4 was strangely close to the sound of the D2 DAC alone.  That didn't really gel well with my assumption on the quality of the mk4.  The tweaks I have made so far lead me to believe that it was just the character of the DAC coming through the transparency of the mk4 and HD800 combo.  With my other headphones I have noticed zero difference when making those tweaks.
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Thujone

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »

This is definitely a different philosophy than finding the "right" amp for your cans, but I would think of it as equally important. There are several factors in the SQ chain but some are seen as more important than others. HF seems to believe that the headphone is the most important part of the chain, hands down, no questions asked. A setup consisting of the ODAC>Emotiva mini-X>HE-6 is put on a pedestal over something like, say, a Bifrost>Crack>HD600. Sometimes I'm convinced that, aside from the theory that the headphone means more than anything else in the chain, the price tag on the headphone is equally important to some hobbyists.

As far as your predicament, having a great amp without a great headphone to pair with, getting a great scalable headphone (aka Sennheisers) makes sense to me!
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funkmeister

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 03:07:52 PM »

I guess we all automatically go through this philosophy at some point, but to put more conscious and cognitive thought into it is strangely new in the community.

I like the thoughts that have come into my mind while reading the posts so far. It also builds a great deal of accountability into headphone makers to get better.

It does beg the question: if an HD800 successor were the new king and had been designed specifically around a specific amp, such as the EC 4-45, would it still be the best headphone EVAR on most sources, or would other sources beg for a different pairing? I think this question is a logical progression of SD's post.
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OJneg

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 05:23:13 PM »

My 2c:

I find lesser transducers (loudspeakers and headphones) much more acceptable when the upstream (D/A and amplification) is top notch. Once you're at the point of a "solid" upstream (definition of "solid" might vary from person to person), you'll get tangible benefits by moving up in the transducer realm. Or at least, that's the path I'm on right now.
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mkubota1

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 06:36:28 PM »

I think it’s natural and easier to build a system around headphones because there are things with headphones that are make or break such as comfort, portability, and sealing.  With amps, you might have lesser issues like tube/SS, footprint, and maybe input options.  I also think that since the variation in SQ is much larger from one can to the next, you have to start ‘coarse’ and then make the fine adjustments with amps, dacs, etc.
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AustinValentine

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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 06:49:30 PM »

I've been thinking about this a bit lately as a type of user-centered technological experience.  Ignoring speakers: it seems strange that the most modular component (headphones) would be the object that often obtains the most rigid fixity in an audio chain. Larger desktop and home sources and amplification are often much more physically inert; they are also (pretty often) more expensive than the headphones they are driving. So odd that these pricy and inert components get swapped around so often.

This is definitely a different philosophy than finding the "right" amp for your cans, but I would think of it as equally important. There are several factors in the SQ chain but some are seen as more important than others. HF seems to believe that the headphone is the most important part of the chain, hands down, no questions asked. A setup consisting of the ODAC>Emotiva mini-X>HE-6 is put on a pedestal over something like, say, a Bifrost>Crack>HD600. Sometimes I'm convinced that, aside from the theory that the headphone means more than anything else in the chain, the price tag on the headphone is equally important to some hobbyists.

While this is a bit cynical - imagine that  :)p8 - I think a lot of this certainly rings true. But high end amps and sources have much higher price tags, no? I don't think it's entirely Veblenesque conspicuous consumption or status performance play, though that's certainly part of it. I think that most end users simply bond with their headphones because headphones are worn. In an audio setup, headphones as their most frequent point of physical contact. People bond with their headphones not only through sound but through ergonomics, size & weight, fit, aesthetics, general tactility, etc.. Amps and Sources on the other hand have aesthetic and interface properties, as well as brand loyalty aspects - but are not necessarily worn. [Edit: see mkubota1's post who pretty much says the same thing, but minutes earlier in time.]

For me then, the companion question to Marv's is: why don't most hi-fi users bond the same way with their amplifiers and sources? Because I actually think that this might differ when we discuss stationary rigs (home and desktop) vs portables. When the source and amplifier become more modular and carried...

I'm going to turn this argument around to this: Getting a headphone which will make make the most of an amplifier / source.

So instead of this tired argument "you need the right amp with the HD800" which seems to rub some people the wrong way, what about "the EC 4-45 needs the right headphone" or "needing headphone Y for amp X"?

...these questions become much more common. When I look at that demographic, even on Head-Fi, I see that people *do* wonder what headphone to pair with their CLAS, Leckerton UHA-6S MKII, Apex Glacier, DX100, AK240, HiFi M8, Pico Slim, Pelicans etc etc etc.
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Re: A twist on the "needing X amp get the full potential of headphone Y"
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2014, 06:55:21 PM »

I've said this a many times in the past.  This is why I've been married to my 800's for years now despite their quirks.  Nothing else lets me pick out changes upstream in DACs, amps, file formats and even codecs as well within just 10-15 secs of listening.  And once the chain is nailed nothing else puts a bigger smile on my face when just listening to music. 

What made me happy about listening to the Levi/445 was knowing how far the 800 still could scale and how the 800 and those amps were end game for me, period.  There is simply no combo out there that can compete for resolution and transparency so I can just focus on the DAC once that's settled until a better transducer comes out.

It's a good problem to have and you just stop jerking around with sidegrades.  At some point, those looking for improvements will run into a choke somewhere and where that is ultimately depends on the individual in question.  I mean that both subjectively and objectively in every conceivable way those terms could be employed.
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