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Author Topic: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma  (Read 4753 times)

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Original_Ken

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 07:49:13 PM »
Quote from: Stapsy on December 13, 2013, 02:20:24 AM
The recent slamming of delta sigma DACs and talk of R2R dacs like the Master 7 and Yggy ...
Where do you see mention of any specific design for Yggdrasil ?   Everything I've found on it, fails to mention anything about the D-to-A design.
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anetode

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 07:58:49 PM »
Schiit's PDF said no noise-shaping DACs, so no delta-sigma. Also that it won't be an usual audio DAC chip, so the usual contenders (1702, etc.) are out.

Quote from: Stapsy on December 13, 2013, 12:38:51 PM
Here is a discussion of delta-sigma for the layman audiophile that might help as well.  Not nearly as detailed as ultrabike but it was intended for audiophile farts at RMAF  :)p17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CkyrDIGzOE

There are a couple of things that I've seen ESS claim which are... questionable. Especially w/r/t their "blind testing".

Quote from: Original_Ken on December 13, 2013, 07:02:39 PM
I think it is just like album releases:

* An expert transfer from a tape copy of a young original master tape, done in 16/44.1 (Barry Diament 1980s Close to the Edge) easily beats a less expert transfer directly from a now old and worn original master tape at 24/192 (2013 hdtracks and Blu-Rays).

* Similarly, I'm willing to bet that an expert implementation of a delta-sigma with quality parts, beats a less expert r2r implementation with low quality parts and opamp outputs.
.

Point is that either approach done well can produce a transparent result.
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Anaxilus

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2013, 08:09:44 PM »
Quote from: Original_Ken on December 13, 2013, 07:49:13 PM
Everything I've found on it, fails to mention anything about the D-to-A design.

Good.  ;D
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Stapsy

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 08:26:56 PM »
I like that excerpt you posted Anetode, I can almost understand it. As for the video I remember it helping to put me on the right track in understanding the DA conversion process. Some of the about people with golden cockleas being able to hear some rattles in Spanish Harlem was kind of silly. I liked the idea that even though their chip was objectively perfect, they still found that it was flawed and reworked the measurement tools in order to understand the differences. That is a topic for another thread though.  There is another part to that talk about digital volume controls which is quite good as well.

WRT the yggy, I think it is just what Anetode said, maybe Jason mentioned something about it, I don't really remember
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ultrabike

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 10:15:29 PM »
Related perhaps, this article seems pretty interesting: http://www.stereophile.com/features/374/index.html

They mention that the Crystal, AKM, and dSC DAC chips use 3, 4, and 5 codes out of their delta sigma implementations (which would lower the modulated quantization noise). This correlates well with what I've recently read about the AKM chips. They also talk about decimation and interpolation in a different context than rate conversion... basically going back and forth from DSD to LPCM for data compression purposes.

Then there is this DSD business requiring a 7th order 1-bit delta sigma!  :-0

Seems there is quite a bit of potential, but from what I read, it seems politics sometimes get in the way.
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Marvey

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 11:31:55 PM »
This all Sony's fault.
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Original_Ken

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 11:58:33 PM »
That article is over 13 years old.
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ultrabike

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 12:14:50 AM »
Yup. And DSD and delta sigma conversion have been around for a bit longer than that too.

DSD is sort of standardized though, and therefore perhaps not very amiable to certain improvements.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 12:46:24 AM by ultrabike »
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anetode

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 03:26:40 AM »
Quote from: ultrabike on December 13, 2013, 10:15:29 PM
Related perhaps, this article seems pretty interesting: http://www.stereophile.com/features/374/index.html

They mention that the Crystal, AKM, and dSC DAC chips use 3, 4, and 5 codes out of their delta sigma implementations (which would lower the modulated quantization noise). This correlates well with what I've recently read about the AKM chips. They also talk about decimation and interpolation in a different context than rate conversion... basically going back and forth from DSD to LPCM for data compression purposes.

Then there is this DSD business requiring a 7th order 1-bit delta sigma!  :-0

Seems there is quite a bit of potential, but from what I read, it seems politics sometimes get in the way.

My pet theory is that Sony became used to cheap 1 bit DACs when manufacturing CD walkmans. Though the alternate hypothesis of DRM seems more likely. Hell even the online hacker community doesn't even care enough to release a good tool for SACDs, audiophiles have to settle for used PS3s with old firmware.
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ultrabike

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Re: DACS: R2R and delta-sigma
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 06:13:31 AM »
LOL! Either way ...
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