CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7

Author Topic: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?  (Read 8835 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anaxilus.

  • Dikus Beligerantis Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 577
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2013, 12:36:08 AM »

EX1000 is fine if you listen at low volumes, the peak is nearly imperceptible.  I listen louder so it's a problem but it does everything else so well, even objectively so.  Just eq the trouble spot.  Bear in mind, I was THE FIRST to complain about the 6k spike on the EX1000 when I reported on it at CES beofer anyone had even heard of it.  I did not like it for a long time until I got to spend more time w/ it doing a comparo w/ the 7550 and EX600.  While I never completely got rid of the spike, I learned to live w/ so much that it did well.  Ultimately I let it go due to poor ergonomics and costing 3x's the price what I paid for the B2.  The EX1000 still has the best imaging, separation, bass linearity and low end clarity of any dynamic IEM I've ever heard still.  Bear in mind, I preferred and used the Japanese boxes, not the US ones.

For me, the RE0 and RE262 are dynamically boring and unengaging.  RE272 was as well but not as much due to it's impressive clarity and delicate microdynamic rendering even thoug it was 'bass light' by relative comparison.  GR07 is just too unrefined and rough sounding for me, never liked it that much.  I'd take the old Radius DDM over the GR07 anyday even though the GR07 has probably my favorite ergonomics of any dynamic IEM ever made.  That's a phone I wanted to like but it sounded more worth $100 than $300.

B2 still some of the best perceived clarity of any IEM I've ever owned including the UERM, UE4 and all the RE's except the 272.  Plus when instead to the right depth w/ the right tips, the treble is sweeter and more sonorous than the UERM and UE4.  It just lacks low end extension and ultimate resolution.  To this day, I still find bands like Rush most engaging on the B2 compared to all my other IEMs.  The combination of uber clarity, great separation, mid bass punch just makes you bang your head and check over your shoulder on occasion.  Based on my fit, it is also one of the least fatiguing TWFKs I've heard also (smoother than CK10, etc).
Logged
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu

AstralStorm

  • Speculation and Speculums
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +250/-164
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 559
  • Warning: causes nearby electronics to go haywire
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2013, 08:59:19 AM »

The "boring" quality is due to frequency response, esp. highs roll. RE-272 had a deeper upper midrange dip too than RE-400, think Paradox, but add a 4k peak.
This is easily fixable and unlike in Paradox, doesn't bring out the mechanical issues of the shell. (mine rattles at higher levels - should've grabbed the non-basic version)
RE-400 is no longer bass light, bass is on par with HE-500, but super clean and refined.
Radius DDM (the old one) I've heard, but couldn't get a good enough fit - it had a major 2k bump enhancing vocals.
The trouble spot was more trouble in the EX1000 I've heard - manufacturing deviation most likely. GR07 is unrefined yes, the plasticky tonality due to the shell. Fixable by removing the back part of it or dumping major damping material inside.

B2 has no real air. I'm talking major 17.5k cliff, even cheap GR07 is better with an 18k roll. Instead, it has some (3-4 dB) 6k boost. Yes, I have managed to insert it super deep now - that required specially tweaked foam olives with two silicone "adapters". (tubes of decreasing caliber) It is way less refined than Sennheiser IE800, RE-272 or RE-400 still. Even Sony MH1 (with modded filter or venting) can give it a run for its money.
Soundstaging is very good due to super deep insertion though, but RE-400 can exceed this too.
Logged
For sale: Hifiman HE-500; Paradox; Brainwavz B2. PM me if you would like to buy them.

Drakkard

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +17/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Fischer Audio guy
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2013, 09:37:58 AM »

Heh, I might go contrary to everyone, and say that me, and another person at FA, find the westone um3x be the best all-rounder armature headphone. Not in stock for sure, but not a huge overhaul either - it just needs good cable and good eartips. Then it can compare directly to UM miracle (thats the best armature unit we tried to directly compare it with).
Westone 4 is a fail from pure sound quality view, but must be pretty profitable, as it is very cleverly tuned to average people desires and source (which is very important factor also).
Logged

Anaxilus.

  • Dikus Beligerantis Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 577
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2013, 05:09:17 PM »

The "boring" quality is due to frequency response, esp. highs roll. RE-272 had a deeper upper midrange dip too than RE-400, think Paradox, but add a 4k peak.
This is easily fixable and unlike in Paradox, doesn't bring out the mechanical issues of the shell. (mine rattles at higher levels - should've grabbed the non-basic version)
RE-400 is no longer bass light, bass is on par with HE-500, but super clean and refined.
Radius DDM (the old one) I've heard, but couldn't get a good enough fit - it had a major 2k bump enhancing vocals.
The trouble spot was more trouble in the EX1000 I've heard - manufacturing deviation most likely. GR07 is unrefined yes, the plasticky tonality due to the shell. Fixable by removing the back part of it or dumping major damping material inside.

B2 has no real air. I'm talking major 17.5k cliff, even cheap GR07 is better with an 18k roll. Instead, it has some (3-4 dB) 6k boost. Yes, I have managed to insert it super deep now - that required specially tweaked foam olives with two silicone "adapters". (tubes of decreasing caliber) It is way less refined than Sennheiser IE800, RE-272 or RE-400 still. Even Sony MH1 (with modded filter or venting) can give it a run for its money.
Soundstaging is very good due to super deep insertion though, but RE-400 can exceed this too.

I'll have to hear your RE400 sometime as I simply do not agree w/ it being more refined than the B2 and the RE400 bass being on par w/ the HE500 (which I find a bit bloated anyway).  Stock, the RE400 is definitely mid-fi at best.  All my friends w/ good ears who have heard it came away less than impressed on every occasion.  Wasn't offensive so there's that.  Until I hear different, no way will I buy into the RE400 being the second coming of Jesus.  Especially when the RE600 didn't seem able to improve on much.

Btw, how do you get away comparing the B2 w/ the 'cheap' GR07 like that?  GR07 is a $180 IEM and the B2 can often be found between $90-$110.
Logged
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu

planx

  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +4/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
  • Crikey
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2013, 09:25:38 PM »

Heh, I might go contrary to everyone, and say that me, and another person at FA, find the westone um3x be the best all-rounder armature headphone. Not in stock for sure, but not a huge overhaul either - it just needs good cable and good eartips. Then it can compare directly to UM miracle (thats the best armature unit we tried to directly compare it with).
Westone 4 is a fail from pure sound quality view, but must be pretty profitable, as it is very cleverly tuned to average people desires and source (which is very important factor also).

Hey thanks for sharing my views on the two Westone products!

My UM3X is using a OCC SPC cable and using the stock (new tips) long silicone tips. With the UM3X being on the dark side, I find that Comply tips doesn't necessarily "aid" the treble.
Logged

Drakkard

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +17/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Fischer Audio guy
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2013, 09:56:38 AM »

We used diy foam eartips (better than comply for this westones) -
The cable was.. Hmm.. Borrowed by our engineer from his last work - military\space production factory. All we know about it, that it is silver, and seems to have much shinier wires than most silver cables in the market (through, there was some similar looking ones also). And it was a relic from USSR era, seems not in production anymore =(
Logged

AstralStorm

  • Speculation and Speculums
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +250/-164
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 559
  • Warning: causes nearby electronics to go haywire
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »

RE-400 is dark, that's why it's stock "mid-fi". The linear error is too much in the highs, ~10 dB dark, but it's almost a plain shelf - little peaks, one notable (to flat) around 4kHz. No ringing, no distortion, easy to drive, not slow bass, very even decay. You need a really, I mean really deep fit with those for best results - on par with Etymotic ER-4. I insert them as deep as possible with short soft biflanges. Long ones "stick up" when put this far, the single flanges can't seal that deep, even the large ones. The angled ones work, but not perfectly - sometimes lose seal.
RE-272 damper only makes them slightly less dark, 2 dB or such, but in the right places - at throughs but not peaks, and at air.
Once the darkness is removed by equalization, they show their true quality.

HE-500 has bass emphasis (actually 2nd order distortion) with stock pads, better with jergpads-style pads which is what I'm comparing to. RE-400 bass is better still, but unless you make them not dark, there's comparatively too much of it.

B2, of which I've just received a new pair, is closer to ideal in FR stock, but it is noisy/gritty in mids, highs, less extended up (manifests as slight lack of air - compensated with general highs boost) and slightly subbass depleted. The 6k peak is there, but now with the best tips I can reduce it to much lower levels (3 dB or so) without making them unbearably dark - using RE-272 long tips with an additional silicone tubing inside to make them fit the narrower nozzles (let's call it an adapter).
They go slightly less deep than RE-400 - "hum test" is resonant but in nose, not ears. With RE-400, there's nearly no resonance at all in this test.
(More edit: actually, the funny medium hardness VSonic olives work as well or slightly better - with the same adapter.)

Hum test: put the IEMs in, hum a low tone, 200-300 Hz. Note where you hear the resonance and how much. Best results are usually when there's nearly none and it's in the center of the head. This measures free air volume in ear and ear canal compliance. Too deep or occluded fit presents with zero resonance on the affected side and obviously low efficiency and "flat" sound. Bad seal presents with little resonance placed very much in ear, sometimes piercing sound, large subbass drop. Shallow depth, but good seal (1st bend) presents with most resonance, located in ear. Often midbass boost and resonance around 6k.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:58:43 PM by AstralStorm »
Logged
For sale: Hifiman HE-500; Paradox; Brainwavz B2. PM me if you would like to buy them.

munch

  • Recoverig Shoutbox Addict & A Better Person
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • ¢
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2013, 07:36:52 PM »

Speculums: what is an RE272 damper, and do you have any fancy graphs to show the difference? would it also work with the RE-600? also I'm kind of curious about EQ'ing my RE-600 to see what it would do to them. I could probably use a similar EQ setting as you, right? if you wouldn't mind sharing! :)
Logged

AstralStorm

  • Speculation and Speculums
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +250/-164
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 559
  • Warning: causes nearby electronics to go haywire
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2013, 10:16:55 PM »

I'll do that soon enough. The difference isn't that huge - better than no damper or stock one - less peaky. The foam should be kept. I've only removed and reinserted it to relieve any possible too thick or uneven packing - this can sometimes happen.

Rin has measured RE-400 in many configurations (w/ and w/o foam, damper, foam + damper and with microfibre) but not this one. He's also unnecessarily applied a vent mod - that is only relevant for shallower fit - perhaps a super deep fit actually occludes the vent somewhat already - at least to my ears. Or actually the Olive-Welti compensation is better than IEC diffuse field.

RE-400 (also RE-0, RE-ZERO, RE-600) dampers are made out of loose cellulose fibers, RE-272 (also RE-262) ones are made out of fine plastic mesh, presumably nylon. They have different sonic properties.

Both kinds can be ordered with respective Hifiman tip sets.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 10:33:46 PM by AstralStorm »
Logged
For sale: Hifiman HE-500; Paradox; Brainwavz B2. PM me if you would like to buy them.

munch

  • Recoverig Shoutbox Addict & A Better Person
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 338
  • ¢
Re: Am I the only one who finds the W4 to be disappointing?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2013, 02:15:12 AM »

interesting. I have a friend with RE-262, so I can probably ask him for a filter. are the filters re-useable or will they lose any sort of stickyness from this? I am guessing it's pretty easy to install? :P

very curious now, as I wouldn't mind a tiny tip tap bopidop more treble for certain tracks.

thanks
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7