CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: planx on August 27, 2013, 09:32:30 PM
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After a brief look at the other place, I found that pretty much everyone praises the W4.
Like the title says, am I the only one who finds the W4 to be shitty?
Let me explain myself before you start hating on me as well. I've owned the ER-4S for many years and I found it to be a rather pleasant sounding "flat" IEM. I've heard that the W4s are tonally similar to the ER-4S but with more bass so I gave them a go. Right off the bat, I've never been so bored with an IEM before. It manages to do everything right to a point, but it doesn't excel in anything. Both the ER-4S and the W4 can be described as "sterile" and/or un-enhanced, but unlike the W4, the ER-4S had this crisp midrange whereas the W4 were boring all around.
If anyone likes the W4 here, please explain to me why you like them so much because the W4 is one of the things that I don't quite understand.
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Kind of agree with you tut they can be very fit/ear dependent more than usual. Same w/ the ER4 but for different reasons. I love my ES5 but the W4 is not for me. I was able to get an incredibly wide yet artificial presentation from the W4 for some reason but that's not a positive in my book. It's definitely for people that like a warmer more laid back sound sig. I've heard one or two say they were too bright or like a mini-ES5. Both are crazy.
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Also, I forgot to mention that I never have issues with fit. Compared my UM3X right next to the W4 yesterday as well and again same results. The W4 had superb presentation for an IEM, but other than that, everything was blahhh to me.
Speaking of the ES5, I've talked to the store owner yesterday (he's a Westone dealer as well) and apparently Westone told him that "if customers like the W4, they will certainly enjoy our customs" (paraphrased). I know for a fact that Girls Generation and I both dislike the W4 and to make things more interesting, he used to own the ES5 as well. Seeing how both you and GG own/owned the ES5 and wasn't particularly crazy about the W4, I think Westone needs to revise their claim.
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After my underwhelming experience with the UM3X, and Etymotic ER-4 custom silicone sleeve I've never had a desire to own another Westone product.
A lot of reviews stated the same thing about the UM3X being the most neutral of their lineup. The midbass was too thick and made everything sound congested to me.
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Well, no comment. As always, read between the lines.
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HA HA HA! Between my two lines... there is absolutely nothing - which is probably what I should have posted. :-D
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Really? I quite like the UM3X. I don't find the midbass to be bothersome as I found the bass in the UM3X to adjust accordingly to the genre. I use the UM3X with my Arrow 4G amp btw. Treble is a little shy at times, but I corrected this with the treble boost in the amp.
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It was just relative to the other gear I had at the time + my sonic preference + not using EQ. UERM is my idea of a fairly well balanced in ear monitor.
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I thought the W4 was too warm when I heard it...would love to demo the ES5 someday.
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I knew the W4 was regarded as "a touch of warmth" but never too warm. Maybe the midbass contributed towards your impressions?
I can confirm that the UM3X is definitely warm, but never thought the same with the W4
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I also thought W4 were bit too warm, but the main bummer was complete lack of air.
That combined with the upper midrange drop makes them sound really dull.
I've decided not to pursue this IEM.
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You've decided wisely AS
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I also thought W4 were bit too warm, but the main bummer was complete lack of air.
That combined with the upper midrange drop makes them sound really dull.
^ THIS ^
When I heard the W4.. at first, I was like:
(http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/182/jayzlaugh.png)
.. then, I was like:
(http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/182/puzzled.png)
A 10dB boost centered around 200 Hz (and the bass sounds every bit as bloated as it looks).. add: a steep drop off in the upper mids = deal breaker. It's one of the most (disappointingly) hyped phones I've heard.
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ITT for a lot of people on HF, the W4 is their first "high end" IEM so it's probably better than whatever they were using before getting the W4, hence the love. A lot of the appreciation threads over there don't actually offer up comparisons to similarly priced gear (unlike here), so the people's impressions don't count for much. It's a decent IEM for me which is a little boring but doesn't do anything totally wrong, unlike cheaper earbuds with overblown bass or recessed mids.
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For a long time, maybe still, most of the threads on HF involve infatuation with sidegrades. FOTM.
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ITT for a lot of people on HF, the W4 is their first "high end" IEM so it's probably better than whatever they were using before getting the W4, hence the love. A lot of the appreciation threads over there don't actually offer up comparisons to similarly priced gear (unlike here), so the people's impressions don't count for much. It's a decent IEM for me which is a little boring but doesn't do anything totally wrong, unlike cheaper earbuds with overblown bass or recessed mids.
True, but I did meet quite a few locals who has experience with many other IEMs and Headphones, a few that share similar tastes as I do. Nevertheless, it's sad how people praise the W4 as their "neutrality statement"...
I'm scared to go back there and post my honest opinions about the W4... Might get banned for being downright honest :)p13
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Same experience here. Technically better than my old GR07's tonally, but boring, especially in the bass department. I got TG334's which are much better sound wise but a mess in terms of comfort and ease of use. I'm getting much more enjoyment using my $70 Senn IEM's and a clip + than I ever did with my DX100 and W4's/TG!334's. All that extra money for naught....
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I was perfectly happy with the W4 until I heard the UERM.
One other thing worth noting about the W4 is that it is highly susceptible to FR shift if used with a source with high output impedance. They are absolutely unlistenable with AK 100.
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I was so underwhelmed by the W4 that I can't even finish this sentence. Don't know how anyone could compare it to the ES5.
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I think the w4 sounds better with added impedance. Less warm and less bass hump. I would think it would sound good with the ak100 but 100 ohms is even better.
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I remember when they first came out and shigz from head-fi said it was more of a side grade and nothing groundbreaking, despite being one of the few four driver universal IEMs at the time. I was automatically put off by the thought of a four driver IEM newly arriving on the scene, not doing anything lesser driver IEMs could do, that and I now shun most IEMs with a mid-bass bump.
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Shigzeo was right. It's foolish to think of the W4 as an upgrade from any of their previous models. 4-drivers doesn't mean shit. Implementation is everything nowadays.
A good example is the Resonessence Concero DAC. For $600, it can easily compete with $1000+ DACs
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Side grade, ha. That's an euphemism for "it's shit".
There are no side grades in high fidelity. There are only tastes in low fidelity, which is what most IEMs, headphones and speakers are.
And this is how FOTM is born, while GR07 and RE-400 are still the highest fidelity IEMs out there (maybe a few others I haven't heard), with expensive things like UE900 and UERM trailing behind, only having slightly less linear error in FR - which is easy to correct by equalization - while trading in uncorrectable harmonic distortion and a bit of ringing.
I haven't found a BA driver that's linear enough yet, even the best combinations are worse. Dynamic drivers can be fast enough. Nobody makes planar or electrostatic IEMs really. (and no, those Stax "IEMs" are not good enough. Also in small size and low excursion a dynamic driver can approach a planar one.)
And BA IEMs tend to be unable to extend to 20k. Which some people happen to be able to hear.
The interesting part is that some indeed like low quality harmonic-distorted bass; or slow bass.
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The re-400 is the highest fidelity iem out there?
For real and serious, AS?
How would an equalized ie800 stack up to the re-400 for you?
Or the ex-1000 vs the re-400?
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Re400 is too low-rez for me. If I want RE400 'fidelity' I can just dust off my old $60 Sunrise Xcapes v.1.
I'm w/ the cat, I'd take en eq'd EX1000 or ie800 anyday. Though the 800's treble might just be too thin for me, not sure if that can be 'fixed'. I'd probably take the Sony 7550 over the 400 as well. That's just for dynamics. I'd get the armatured UERM, UE4 and DBA/B2 over the 400 as well.
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I don't know if I find the RE-400 to be *that* low in resolution... it's very pleasant to listen to and does vocals well!
I haven't really tried the EX1000, but the EX800ST is definitely a good one. more treble for sure.
either way, W4 was indeed a bit of a letdown.
(btw since you guys are from Vancouver right, do you know if store owner has any impedance adapters to try the W4 with? heard it helps a lot?)
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Low rez compared to EX1000 and UERM. So it's no giant killer IMO.
Myself, AS, Kunlun are not at all from Vancouver.
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Side grade, ha. That's an euphemism for "it's shit".
There are no side grades in high fidelity. There are only tastes in low fidelity, which is what most IEMs, headphones and speakers are.
And this is how FOTM is born, while GR07 and RE-400 are still the highest fidelity IEMs out there (maybe a few others I haven't heard), with expensive things like UE900 and UERM trailing behind, only having slightly less linear error in FR - which is easy to correct by equalization - while trading in uncorrectable harmonic distortion and a bit of ringing.
I haven't found a BA driver that's linear enough yet, even the best combinations are worse. Dynamic drivers can be fast enough. Nobody makes planar or electrostatic IEMs really. (and no, those Stax "IEMs" are not good enough. Also in small size and low excursion a dynamic driver can approach a planar one.)
And BA IEMs tend to be unable to extend to 20k. Which some people happen to be able to hear.
The interesting part is that some indeed like low quality harmonic-distorted bass; or slow bass.
With all due respect, you've overplayed your hand here by a fair bit.
"Sidegrade" is not a euphemism for "it's shit." It's a euphemism for "it's no better than what you already have, so put your damn wallet away, fool."
"There are no sidegrades in high fidelity" is, simply put, gibberish. I have absolutely no idea what you wish to communicate by that statement.
You're welcome to have your own opinions about the relative quality of various IEMs, and there's no need for you to walk those opinions back simply because they are minority opinions. You know your own ears better than anybody. That said, I'm reasonably certain that your opinion about the relative merits of the RE-400 and UERM is distinctly a minority opinion, and I wish you'd explain why you think that. And never forget that opinions are like noses: everybody has one, and none is inherently better than any other. :money:
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I'd be curious to hear a top dynamic IEM, but don't know where to look. That Sony has weird ergonomics and no isolation which pretty much rule them out for me. I had such displeasure owning the IE-8 from Sennheiser and one of their "top" ear buds that I've not really wanted another small driver headphone from them - kind of eliminating the IE-800 from my list too.
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Low rez compared to EX1000 and UERM. So it's no giant killer IMO.
Myself, AS, Kunlun are not at all from Vancouver.
yeah no that's getting into unfair comparison territory going by MSRP... :)
I meant thread maker and umm Girls Generation as I've seen them post on head-fi too.
sorry about that :D
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I don't know if I find the RE-400 to be *that* low in resolution... it's very pleasant to listen to and does vocals well!
I haven't really tried the EX1000, but the EX800ST is definitely a good one. more treble for sure.
either way, W4 was indeed a bit of a letdown.
(btw since you guys are from Vancouver right, do you know if store owner has any impedance adapters to try the W4 with? heard it helps a lot?)
I am from Vancouver. No, he doesn't have any impedance adapters, but I do have a 150ohm adapter myself that I managed to grab from ebay. Works too well, I should've gotten the 50ohm or 75.
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right, cool. hmm so you tried it with the W4 I assume you're saying, and that it perhaps altered the FR a bit too much?
don't really know whether this IEM is possible to save though, as it just had a bit too much mid-bass for me though.
but was it better with 150Ohm over no added impedance?
thanks!
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I'm interested in the "no sidegrades in high fidelity" with the caveat that no earphones or headphones fall into that category for you, AS. Over in low fidelity land, the law of diminishing returns seems to push products to an asymptotic sidegrade of sorts. Is that not true among million dollar speaker systems as well?
I'd be curious to hear a top dynamic IEM, but don't know where to look. That Sony has weird ergonomics and no isolation which pretty much rule them out for me. I had such displeasure owning the IE-8 from Sennheiser and one of their "top" ear buds that I've not really wanted another small driver headphone from them - kind of eliminating the IE-800 from my list too.
The IE-800 is quite different than the IE8. If you can wear the ie-800 over-ear, then I think you'll find it pretty comfortable and usable. You might end up putting a piece of clear tape over the top vent (which controls the bass) if you don't like sub-bass, but for commuting and travel, it's superb if worn over-ear. I keep listening for issues with the treble and so far, they are very minor with just a bit of thinness. There's a bit of a lack of edginess, if anything, rather than sibilance and the clarity in the midrange is very nice. Anyway, they're still new for me, you may or may not like their tuning, but I'd say they are a top dynamic, no question. The choice of microphonic cable which means no-cable down wear is a little weird. I wish I could email Axel Grell at Sennheiser and ask him about it. I'd also like a unicorn while I'm at it...
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right, cool. hmm so you tried it with the W4 I assume you're saying, and that it perhaps altered the FR a bit too much?
don't really know whether this IEM is possible to save though, as it just had a bit too much mid-bass for me though.
but was it better with 150Ohm over no added impedance?
thanks!
No, I just own the adapter. I never tried the W4 with it unfortunately.
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ah okay, well if you perhaps happen to go there again you could try it that way and see what happens. wouldn't expect too much though. :(
it seems we all had high expectations for this one.
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Hi, first post here. Handle on H-F is twinqy.
Anyways, just wanted to chime in quickly here unless my spotty wifi cuts me off. I wouldn't know of any other instances of the OP trying out the W4s, but the one time I've personally seen him try mine out, the volume adapter included with the Westones was connected.
If I'm not mistaken - and I very well could be as I have no means of measuring the output, nor do I remember what came with my TF10 or my UE600 - the adapter is very similar, if not the same, as the UE volume adapter. i.e. a impedance adapter in disguise rated at 100 ohms at it's maximum (and I have a piece of tape covering it to keep it at said maximum). It certainly goes beyond what my 75ohm one can do. I can't post a fancy graph to confirm that statement. I do have Google Spreadsheets on another page if you want me to churn something out real quick.
So I can confirm that he did technically try it with additional resistance once. I don't remember a particularly positive response from him either. The words "shit" and "cuntsucker" does pop into memory. It's great to be able to swear here.
And my own 2c - It's a pretty benign sounding thing. I'm typically a pretty boring person. It evens out. To be quite honest I don't have time to care about what I listen to on a daily basis. As long as I can get my Miley Cyrus tunes plugged in during the commute, and the awful-musical-turd Radiohead plugged out, I'm good.
I might be sending them to someone for a reshell/retune - if the guy responds. I've kept them so long just for a reshell, and I should probably stick to my guns despite how tempting it all might seem otherwise. And it's tempting. No one should be subjugated to the W4 - now-properly-rechristened as Total Musical Turd MK2 - for extended periods. Not in a country where torture is illegal at least.
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Well I don't think the W4 is 'bad' so much as expensive for what you get. I've certainly heard worse for considerably more money. For me it did present the widest SS I've ever heard which some people would like. It was too semi-circle for me personally with L/R too far forward.
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Well I don't think the W4 is 'bad' so much as expensive for what you get. I've certainly heard worse for considerably more money. For me it did present the widest SS I've ever heard which some people would like. It was too semi-circle for me personally with L/R too far forward.
sums it up for me as well I think. I hear people say RE-600 is boring and I love it, so dunno!
I am not much for soundstage width so I didn't pay that much attention to it.
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Hi, first post here. Handle on H-F is twinqy.
Anyways, just wanted to chime in quickly here unless my spotty wifi cuts me off. I wouldn't know of any other instances of the OP trying out the W4s, but the one time I've personally seen him try mine out, the volume adapter included with the Westones was connected.
If I'm not mistaken - and I very well could be as I have no means of measuring the output, nor do I remember what came with my TF10 or my UE600 - the adapter is very similar, if not the same, as the UE volume adapter. i.e. a impedance adapter in disguise rated at 100 ohms at it's maximum (and I have a piece of tape covering it to keep it at said maximum). It certainly goes beyond what my 75ohm one can do. I can't post a fancy graph to confirm that statement. I do have Google Spreadsheets on another page if you want me to churn something out real quick.
So I can confirm that he did technically try it with additional resistance once. I don't remember a particularly positive response from him either. The words "shit" and "cuntsucker" does pop into memory. It's great to be able to swear here.
And my own 2c - It's a pretty benign sounding thing. I'm typically a pretty boring person. It evens out. To be quite honest I don't have time to care about what I listen to on a daily basis. As long as I can get my Miley Cyrus tunes plugged in during the commute, and the awful-musical-turd Radiohead plugged out, I'm good.
I might be sending them to someone for a reshell/retune - if the guy responds. I've kept them so long just for a reshell, and I should probably stick to my guns despite how tempting it all might seem otherwise. And it's tempting. No one should be subjugated to the W4 - now-properly-rechristened as Total Musical Turd MK2 - for extended periods. Not in a country where torture is illegal at least.
Ha! Long time no talk ey? Yes, I did try the W4 with your adapters, but on different occasions I did try the W4 without the adapters as well. I choose to not compare the differences between with/without the adapter as my memories are a little blurry with the adapter, but either way they didn't strike me as impressive. Boring is one way to put it. Just my preference.
Haha yes, I think I do remember saying those rather descriptive words, but I think they were an exaggeration. To me, something that's "shit" is something like the Ultrasone 8, which quite a few people can agree on. Is the W4 for me? Obviously not, but with that said, I am entitled to my opinions and stand next to what I said.
Ahh, again with the bashing of Radiohead. Remind me to tape some IEMs into your ears and blast some OK Computer :)p13
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Warning: long rant ahead. popcorn
I'm interested in the "no sidegrades in high fidelity" with the caveat that no earphones or headphones fall into that category for you, AS. Over in low fidelity land, the law of diminishing returns seems to push products to an asymptotic sidegrade of sorts. Is that not true among million dollar speaker systems as well?
See, there's usually something that measures better or as good in all ways - it is typical that it actually sounds better or as good too. That's what I found. However, some measurements are more important than others - FR is easily fixed. Ringing much harder to fix (advanced inverse convolution is necessary or superior damping) and harmonic distortion is nearly impossible to fix unless caused by lack of seal or simple misdesign of the shell. Or perhaps too loose membrane in orthodynamics.
Similarly in amps, with the addition of the most important overshoot and convergence time (sorry, I don't know how that's called in English actually) w/ capacitive load and IMD (both kinds). Both in small and large signal. (Still not measured by enough people and thus the whole mess about amplifiers.)
Ye olde "square wave response", which is quite useless in presence of frequency response nonlinearity (for headphones/IEMs) - but is highly useful for electrically precise things like amplifiers.
I'd be curious to hear a top dynamic IEM, but don't know where to look.
The IE-800 is quite different than the IE8. <snip> I wish I could email Axel Grell at Sennheiser and ask him about it. I'd also like a unicorn while I'm at it...
Yes, Sennheiser IE800 is a very good IEM if a bit expensive, fit issues and slight top end ringing aside (it's *huge* and stubby), but still not as good as RE-400 (darn cheap and great)/RE-600 (darn overpriced because RE-400 is better) siblings or RE-272 (maybe outdated, RE-400 is slightly better, esp. in FR, if you can stand deep fit).
Oh, and RE-400 is also best worn over the ear - otherwise it is nearly impossible to achieve required deep enough fit due to the strain relief on the cable - at least for me.
The real problem is that it's only good and at the price point, it should be the be all end all. I've hit *inverse* returns with price hard with that SE-5 and earlier Etymotic ER-4P + adapter + custom tips. And again with Brainwavz B2. And again... I was too curious about the next best thing - but now I have better contact with a few shops and they're all too willing to let me try their stuff out.
(Such as Westone UM3X demo. Distorted bass monster, that's what it is.)
About Sony MDR-EX1000 (assuming this is the model you're talking about) - it has a terrible 6-7k ringing issue which makes VSonic GR07 hotness with teensy ringing appear trivial. I'm talking ear piercing levels. It's not a double or triple penetrator at least, but that doesn't make it good.
Have a list of great dynamic driver IEMs to check, in order of price (NOT quality): Sony MH1 (not MH1C), VSonic VC02, Hifiman RE-0, Hifiman RE-400, Hifiman RE-ZERO, VSonic GR06, VSonic GR07, Hifiman RE-262, Hifiman RE-272, Sennheiser IE800.
In terms of subjective quality, I'd order it like: RE-400, RE-272, GR07, RE-262, IE800, MH1, VC02, RE-0 =~ RE-ZERO, GR06; Brainwavz B2 (== any TWFK, they sound very alike) comes after IE800, behind MH1. (nicer FR with best fit, much worse distortion and extension) UERM comes tied to GR07, but again, different signature and tradeoffs. (GR07 V-shape with slightly plasticky timbre + hotness; UERM general so-so distortion, sticking out in an otherwise good IEM; general brightness)
Sony MDR-EX1000 doesn't make the list due to its fatal flaw. Neither does RE-600, since it's a devolution of RE-400. (only a step behind RE-272 - large lack of air fixable with EQ) No, I haven't listed all dynamic IEMs I've heard over the years. Heck, maybe LG Quadbeats could make the list, but I didn't have any comparison IEM at that listen.
Most BA IEMs don't make the list either. ER-4S being just on par with RE-0/RE-ZERO. Westone 4 is way off. SE-5 is only generally bit better than Brainwavz B2 due to its high midrange distortion combined with FR cut despite 4 drivers - but it is way better with bass - only RE-400 and IE800 are notably better. (RE-262/272 are more refined, but lose on correct volume - need EQ.)
I'd have a hard time to put together such a headphone list, because all headphones do one or more things wrong. Yes, even Sennheiser HD800. (that fixable Face tweeteR effect, subbass handling is good but not the best) Even Audeze LCD-3. (fixable upper mids cut, slowish highs) Even Stax Lambda Pro driven by a non-stock amp. (friend of a friend's gear - it fails utterly at subbass despite great seal; also finicky to place on head) Or Hifiman HE-6. (minor distortion giving smoothness combined with funny fixable upper mids boost giving etch)
So there I'm unable to pick a dominator like in IEMs.
IEM vs headphone standoff is... interesting. If you ignore RE-400, it's on par. But this IEM with very deep fit (for soundstaging) takes the absolute top. It beats headphones at soundstaging and unlike some deep fitted BAs which can come close on this point, doesn't suffer from distortion or ringing.
Every shallow fit IEM has that wrong soundstage to my ears. Even SE-5 had it depending on how deep I crammed them, suggesting very slightly too shallow impression. Sleek Audio SA6 was possible to insert this deep, but it was inferior to most everything new. Ety ER-4P/S had it as well, but its mids boost ruined the soundstage.
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EX1000 is fine if you listen at low volumes, the peak is nearly imperceptible. I listen louder so it's a problem but it does everything else so well, even objectively so. Just eq the trouble spot. Bear in mind, I was THE FIRST to complain about the 6k spike on the EX1000 when I reported on it at CES beofer anyone had even heard of it. I did not like it for a long time until I got to spend more time w/ it doing a comparo w/ the 7550 and EX600. While I never completely got rid of the spike, I learned to live w/ so much that it did well. Ultimately I let it go due to poor ergonomics and costing 3x's the price what I paid for the B2. The EX1000 still has the best imaging, separation, bass linearity and low end clarity of any dynamic IEM I've ever heard still. Bear in mind, I preferred and used the Japanese boxes, not the US ones.
For me, the RE0 and RE262 are dynamically boring and unengaging. RE272 was as well but not as much due to it's impressive clarity and delicate microdynamic rendering even thoug it was 'bass light' by relative comparison. GR07 is just too unrefined and rough sounding for me, never liked it that much. I'd take the old Radius DDM over the GR07 anyday even though the GR07 has probably my favorite ergonomics of any dynamic IEM ever made. That's a phone I wanted to like but it sounded more worth $100 than $300.
B2 still some of the best perceived clarity of any IEM I've ever owned including the UERM, UE4 and all the RE's except the 272. Plus when instead to the right depth w/ the right tips, the treble is sweeter and more sonorous than the UERM and UE4. It just lacks low end extension and ultimate resolution. To this day, I still find bands like Rush most engaging on the B2 compared to all my other IEMs. The combination of uber clarity, great separation, mid bass punch just makes you bang your head and check over your shoulder on occasion. Based on my fit, it is also one of the least fatiguing TWFKs I've heard also (smoother than CK10, etc).
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The "boring" quality is due to frequency response, esp. highs roll. RE-272 had a deeper upper midrange dip too than RE-400, think Paradox, but add a 4k peak.
This is easily fixable and unlike in Paradox, doesn't bring out the mechanical issues of the shell. (mine rattles at higher levels - should've grabbed the non-basic version)
RE-400 is no longer bass light, bass is on par with HE-500, but super clean and refined.
Radius DDM (the old one) I've heard, but couldn't get a good enough fit - it had a major 2k bump enhancing vocals.
The trouble spot was more trouble in the EX1000 I've heard - manufacturing deviation most likely. GR07 is unrefined yes, the plasticky tonality due to the shell. Fixable by removing the back part of it or dumping major damping material inside.
B2 has no real air. I'm talking major 17.5k cliff, even cheap GR07 is better with an 18k roll. Instead, it has some (3-4 dB) 6k boost. Yes, I have managed to insert it super deep now - that required specially tweaked foam olives with two silicone "adapters". (tubes of decreasing caliber) It is way less refined than Sennheiser IE800, RE-272 or RE-400 still. Even Sony MH1 (with modded filter or venting) can give it a run for its money.
Soundstaging is very good due to super deep insertion though, but RE-400 can exceed this too.
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Heh, I might go contrary to everyone, and say that me, and another person at FA, find the westone um3x be the best all-rounder armature headphone. Not in stock for sure, but not a huge overhaul either - it just needs good cable and good eartips. Then it can compare directly to UM miracle (thats the best armature unit we tried to directly compare it with).
Westone 4 is a fail from pure sound quality view, but must be pretty profitable, as it is very cleverly tuned to average people desires and source (which is very important factor also).
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The "boring" quality is due to frequency response, esp. highs roll. RE-272 had a deeper upper midrange dip too than RE-400, think Paradox, but add a 4k peak.
This is easily fixable and unlike in Paradox, doesn't bring out the mechanical issues of the shell. (mine rattles at higher levels - should've grabbed the non-basic version)
RE-400 is no longer bass light, bass is on par with HE-500, but super clean and refined.
Radius DDM (the old one) I've heard, but couldn't get a good enough fit - it had a major 2k bump enhancing vocals.
The trouble spot was more trouble in the EX1000 I've heard - manufacturing deviation most likely. GR07 is unrefined yes, the plasticky tonality due to the shell. Fixable by removing the back part of it or dumping major damping material inside.
B2 has no real air. I'm talking major 17.5k cliff, even cheap GR07 is better with an 18k roll. Instead, it has some (3-4 dB) 6k boost. Yes, I have managed to insert it super deep now - that required specially tweaked foam olives with two silicone "adapters". (tubes of decreasing caliber) It is way less refined than Sennheiser IE800, RE-272 or RE-400 still. Even Sony MH1 (with modded filter or venting) can give it a run for its money.
Soundstaging is very good due to super deep insertion though, but RE-400 can exceed this too.
I'll have to hear your RE400 sometime as I simply do not agree w/ it being more refined than the B2 and the RE400 bass being on par w/ the HE500 (which I find a bit bloated anyway). Stock, the RE400 is definitely mid-fi at best. All my friends w/ good ears who have heard it came away less than impressed on every occasion. Wasn't offensive so there's that. Until I hear different, no way will I buy into the RE400 being the second coming of Jesus. Especially when the RE600 didn't seem able to improve on much.
Btw, how do you get away comparing the B2 w/ the 'cheap' GR07 like that? GR07 is a $180 IEM and the B2 can often be found between $90-$110.
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Heh, I might go contrary to everyone, and say that me, and another person at FA, find the westone um3x be the best all-rounder armature headphone. Not in stock for sure, but not a huge overhaul either - it just needs good cable and good eartips. Then it can compare directly to UM miracle (thats the best armature unit we tried to directly compare it with).
Westone 4 is a fail from pure sound quality view, but must be pretty profitable, as it is very cleverly tuned to average people desires and source (which is very important factor also).
Hey thanks for sharing my views on the two Westone products!
My UM3X is using a OCC SPC cable and using the stock (new tips) long silicone tips. With the UM3X being on the dark side, I find that Comply tips doesn't necessarily "aid" the treble.
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We used diy foam eartips (better than comply for this westones) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8ycTY0GPAE&html5=1
The cable was.. Hmm.. Borrowed by our engineer from his last work - military\space production factory. All we know about it, that it is silver, and seems to have much shinier wires than most silver cables in the market (through, there was some similar looking ones also). And it was a relic from USSR era, seems not in production anymore =(
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RE-400 is dark, that's why it's stock "mid-fi". The linear error is too much in the highs, ~10 dB dark, but it's almost a plain shelf - little peaks, one notable (to flat) around 4kHz. No ringing, no distortion, easy to drive, not slow bass, very even decay. You need a really, I mean really deep fit with those for best results - on par with Etymotic ER-4. I insert them as deep as possible with short soft biflanges. Long ones "stick up" when put this far, the single flanges can't seal that deep, even the large ones. The angled ones work, but not perfectly - sometimes lose seal.
RE-272 damper only makes them slightly less dark, 2 dB or such, but in the right places - at throughs but not peaks, and at air.
Once the darkness is removed by equalization, they show their true quality.
HE-500 has bass emphasis (actually 2nd order distortion) with stock pads, better with jergpads-style pads which is what I'm comparing to. RE-400 bass is better still, but unless you make them not dark, there's comparatively too much of it.
B2, of which I've just received a new pair, is closer to ideal in FR stock, but it is noisy/gritty in mids, highs, less extended up (manifests as slight lack of air - compensated with general highs boost) and slightly subbass depleted. The 6k peak is there, but now with the best tips I can reduce it to much lower levels (3 dB or so) without making them unbearably dark - using RE-272 long tips with an additional silicone tubing inside to make them fit the narrower nozzles (let's call it an adapter).
They go slightly less deep than RE-400 - "hum test" is resonant but in nose, not ears. With RE-400, there's nearly no resonance at all in this test.
(More edit: actually, the funny medium hardness VSonic olives work as well or slightly better - with the same adapter.)
Hum test: put the IEMs in, hum a low tone, 200-300 Hz. Note where you hear the resonance and how much. Best results are usually when there's nearly none and it's in the center of the head. This measures free air volume in ear and ear canal compliance. Too deep or occluded fit presents with zero resonance on the affected side and obviously low efficiency and "flat" sound. Bad seal presents with little resonance placed very much in ear, sometimes piercing sound, large subbass drop. Shallow depth, but good seal (1st bend) presents with most resonance, located in ear. Often midbass boost and resonance around 6k.
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Speculums: what is an RE272 damper, and do you have any fancy graphs to show the difference? would it also work with the RE-600? also I'm kind of curious about EQ'ing my RE-600 to see what it would do to them. I could probably use a similar EQ setting as you, right? if you wouldn't mind sharing! :)
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I'll do that soon enough. The difference isn't that huge - better than no damper or stock one - less peaky. The foam should be kept. I've only removed and reinserted it to relieve any possible too thick or uneven packing - this can sometimes happen.
Rin has measured RE-400 in many configurations (w/ and w/o foam, damper, foam + damper and with microfibre) but not this one. He's also unnecessarily applied a vent mod - that is only relevant for shallower fit - perhaps a super deep fit actually occludes the vent somewhat already - at least to my ears. Or actually the Olive-Welti compensation is better than IEC diffuse field.
RE-400 (also RE-0, RE-ZERO, RE-600) dampers are made out of loose cellulose fibers, RE-272 (also RE-262) ones are made out of fine plastic mesh, presumably nylon. They have different sonic properties.
Both kinds can be ordered with respective Hifiman tip sets.
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interesting. I have a friend with RE-262, so I can probably ask him for a filter. are the filters re-useable or will they lose any sort of stickyness from this? I am guessing it's pretty easy to install? :P
very curious now, as I wouldn't mind a tiny tip tap bopidop more treble for certain tracks.
thanks
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The filters typically break when removing them.
Now the whole thing those do is bring up the treble. It still has the same throughs, but the peaks hit almost exactly "0 db", the throughs are around 9 dB. Plus it easily extends to 20k, loudness is exactly the same as in the throughs.
There are four dips: ~2.5k, ~8k, ~12k, ~20k; It is linear from 19 - 1000 Hz. There are no peaks above zero in this configuration. (unlike damperless or especially foamless) Dips are ~9 dB deep.
Using the RE-400 with the included small short biflanges now, very deep fit. The strain relief just broke from this insertion, I'll have to glue it back. Yes, build quality of the cable could be better.
I need a better parametric-graphic EQ for Linux - CALF is acting up in a weird way. Maybe I'll write one once I figure out the right way to graph a biquad section.
(Well, can always do it the stupid way - run an impulse though it into a spectrum analyzer.)
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right. well I have spares I just didn't feel like wasting them :P that's interesting from an FR perspective though.
I am also using the RE-600 with the tiny bi-flanges and I get a good seal/fit without breaking the connector, just sits well.
that's pretty unfortunate though, my cable feels kind of nice. maybe the build is better on the 600, I don't really know.
so while I'm not sure if you heard the RE-600, I find the midrange to be a lot cleaner and less 'dry' on the 600 vs the 400... do you think the filter change would keep the midrange of the 600, or is that like the filter doing that?
thanks!
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I think I'd agree w/ you on the mids. 600 is more refined sounding.
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There's really no way it can be more refined, other than better channel matching. Which can and does happen - my RE-400 pair are well matched, only mismatches are ~ 2 dB in 8 and 12k range.
Note to self: do not use dodgy sine generators displaying 0.5x actual frequency. Note to self 2: shut up about lack of peaks unless there are actually none.
Have a screenshot of my RE-400 correction. It is not precise enough in the highs, I've ran out of parametric eqs - really have to write a better equalizer.
This is off the Hilo phones output.
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it could just be the filter that makes a large enough difference if so.
that looks to be pretty accurate with the olive-welti or what it's called measured RE-400. seems like a lot of sub-bass though?
anyhow, I'll try the filter thingies and see what I end up with, also going to try that Accu...something app for iOS and see, since I use iPad for my listening.
cheerios!
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Accudio sucks. By sucks, I mean it will turn your IEMs into highs depleted bass monsters most of the time. RE-272 (lower impedance) damper brings out the treble, so does deep fit. (in addition to improved soundstage) It also slightly speeds up bass. The 20kHz actually is at -18 dB. (roll starts at 16k)
They do remain superbly controlled and super smooth while not being imprecise. That's low distortion, no ringing and good decay times for you.
Head to head with equalized B2 - B2 keeps the "BA edge" and is not refined in the bass at all, mids and upper mids are gritty in comparison, only the highest end is comparable... but it is also extended to 18k.
The subbass boost is 6 dB, which is very close to O-W. No, I neither use any compensation curve nor the graphs while equalizing by ear.
The mismatch in RE-400 is at resonant freqs - they're slightly off, by 200 Hz or so.
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right, I get a pretty deep fit. but do you know if the midrange stays the same with the RE-272 filters?
I was thinking Accudio for EQ'ing, not using their presets. I don't like Golden Ears target as it doesn't make any sense with what I hear TBH.
although if there is a better EQ app I'd love to try it of course! preferably cheap or free.
but I hope to experiment soon! the filter sounds very tempting.
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Planx - I'm in the same boat. I don't like the W4 and find it, as you say, competent but utterly boring. The massive upper-midrange suckout that Tyll recorded - I hear that. Plus a peaky treble, and a lot of dryness, and just generally not very clean mids. When I posted about it on HF I got shouted down, just as when I posted negative impressions on the W3. At least this time there were no PMs from vendors concerned that I was interfering with their business.
I don't hear any of that with the UM3x, and I like the UM3x a lot. It's far from perfect - the bass is loose, the treble is rolled off, and in general it has a very mid-heavy, almost vintage-headphone sound. But considering what passes for sound quality in universal-fit IEMs, the UM3x is about as good as it gets. It's not fatiguing, it has nice mids, good detail extraction, nice dynamics, and it's one of the few universal IEMs that are comfortable for me.
Fit matters hugely in IEMs, and I have friends who swear they don't hear the same thing as I do, whereas when it comes to headphones and speakers we usually agree. So YMMV.
I don't much like the SE535 either, and I don't hear the same thing that others do. Yeah, they're nice and linear from the deep bass to somewhere around 1-2khz, but then up from there they're a mess. Piercing, metallic highs, and unnatural upper mids. No idea how anyone could find them natural, but again, I suspect I'm not getting the best fit here.
I also never liked the Etys much - they did a lot right up to the treble, but the highs were so overblown that I could never get them to sound anything but thin and brittle at normal listening levels. I guess diffuse-field equalization just isn't for me. Plus they were about as comfortable as having drill bits stuck in your ears.
So far the only custom I've had was the ES2, and while in terms of detail it doesn't outdo today's universals, the tonal balance was better than any universal so far. I'm not going to try the ludicrously overpriced SE846 simply because I don't want to support the trend of headphone price gouging but the ES5 or something similar may be in my future.
I think in general Westone's pro products are far, far better than their consumer line. I liked the UM2 for its time too, though now it's a bit obsolete.
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Also, the Stax SR-001 Mk2 sounds delicious, but the physical design is a big pile of fail. Good fit is critical with these, as it is with IEMs, and you'll have a muffled and dull sound when you don't get it. I can get a good fit for about 20 minutes, and then my ears swell up and pain escalates to levels that, frankly, should end in a lawsuit. It's too bad, I really enjoy these for the sound but I refuse to use them anymore. However, your luck may be better than mine, and if you can get these to fit comfortably, on SQ they will kill any univesal IEM very, very dead - and, for that matter, most full-size headphones the wrong side of the HD600 or ESP950.
I haven't tried the SR-002 though.
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Agreed to your agreement catscratch!
Even though you and I share different opinions about the ER-4, which I completely understand as it can be quite bothersome to some, I think it's fair to assume that most of the people who try the W4 share similar thoughts as us, until they become loyalists to the W4 for a particular reason I cannot seem to understand. With the owners of the W4, I've even had them agree that the W4 sounds dull and there's a problem with the upper-midrange. Great. The problem arises when these "loyalists" continue to argue that the W4 is the best IEM they've ever heard.
I'm sort of fed up with these stubborn people and I choose to avoid clashing with them, but for the people who share the same thoughts and experiences, lets just spend our good money on something else worthwhile.
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I think we had some discussion about the RE400 and RE600 here. To me, they definitely sounded very similar to the point I wondered if they were the same driver w/ perhaps the 600 being doped somehow a la Grado's lineup.
I'll leave these here for reference:
RE400
(http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMAN_RE400600_Graph_RE400.jpg)
RE600
(http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/HiFiMAN_RE400600_Graph_RE600.jpg)
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I see better QC in RE-600 (channel matching is perfect) and the added mass slightly reducing peaks and distortion at high levels due to increased damping. (silver coil)
The damping can be had in RE-400 by tossing some microfibre or doubling the filter - except this also increases acoustic impedance, while just adding mass doesn't - makes the IEM yet more dependent on insertion depth.
Fresh new "perfect" correction for very deep fit with the very short biflanges and RE-272 damper. I'm not sure about the exact magnitude at 20k, but it is close.
(EDIT: Updated, very minor resonant frequency and Q tweaking. Yet closer to ideal - but to be perfect I'd need a few more parametrics or that FFT graphic EQ.
Also the new crossfeed preset - have fun. The LV2 host I'm using is called Carla.)
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I just got a hold of RE-262/272 filters to try and I really like them on the RE-600.
what surprised me was that the bass did change a bit too, but IMO to the better.
for now, that is. I will try this out for a few days and see if I'll keep it. really enjoying it this far.
when I can try EQ'ing on a computer I will do that and see how I like it.
thanks for the tip Speculums