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Author Topic: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison  (Read 12397 times)

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Anaxilus

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2015, 10:07:19 PM »
More non specific jibber jabber and gross generalities. How much digital output content is colored relative to the input these days?  facepalm

I'm still waiting for you to link how making modern pressings in vinyl equates to the Yggy not sounding as good as you thought it would in your imagination. What sort of dissonant thought process are you trying to invoke exactly? If its that a pristine digital master played through yggy isn't as good or better as the same on a bad vinyl pressing then where the hell did you see anybody say that? What a random injection of bias on your part.

Btw, most of the albums on Dr. Loudness would disagree with you about which format has the superior dynamic range closer to the original input.

Before you respond to this post, try responding to my last one first. Your random vinyl stream of consciousness is quite OT and nonsensical atm. You have presented no logical link to what you are spouting in relation to the actual thread topic.
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Original_Ken

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2015, 10:19:38 PM »
I didn't bring up vinyl.

2nd restatement.   If Yggy is not better than vinyl, then it is not as good as I imagined it might be (from reading reviews).

This is disappointing because vinyl is an impractical listening method - and - ironically - more so in 2015 than in 1975.

(OT comment - a lot of things are trendy these days as a reaction to the conventional.  Analog watches, shoestrings, vinyl, and mono.   The number of albums where the artists and primary engineers were involved with the mono mix and not the stereo mix, is much smaller than the number of mono re-releases in 2013-2015... and even in those cases, the unapproved stereo mixes still sound better IMHO).
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Anaxilus

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2015, 10:39:29 PM »
Quote from: Original_Ken on August 23, 2015, 10:19:38 PM
2nd restatement.   If Yggy is not better than vinyl, then it is not as good as I imagined it might be (from reading reviews).

3rd restatement. Your statement makes no sense and you've provided little if anything for any literate person to get an idea of wtf you are even getting at.

Who said Yggy was better than the best vinyl? What digital implementation do you know that sounds better than the best vinyl? Why do you let your imagination run wild when reading reviews? Maybe Yggy is 'better' than vinyl since you don't have to dunk it in a sonic tank? Maybe just listen to music through your phone then?

/shrug
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DaveBSC

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2015, 10:51:13 PM »
Quote from: Original_Ken on August 23, 2015, 09:12:38 PM
But most of my post is just saying that vinyl is no general solution because most pressings are crap.  (The ones that are not crap, i.e. the "180gram" blah blah, are done from master tapes that are old and faded)

So, if you want to listen to a particular album, it may not have a good vinyl copy, or it may take you $500 and several weeks to get one.

Define "most." Some of the best pressed vinyl I've got was done fairly recently. Double LP releases are also far more common now than they used to be, when the order of the day was to just shove 55+ minutes on a single 33 because "good enough." The weight of the record has absolutely no bearing on pressing quality. '60s records tended to be pretty heavy, in the '70s and early '80s records were pretty light and floppy (130-150g or so), and now its fashionable for them to be heavy again. I've got some 200g vinyl, it's not any better than any of my other vinyl.

Re-pressings are often worse than originals, that's true. The exact same is true for remastered CDs. Most remastered CDs are trash, and the labels that are putting in the effort, like AP's SACD Blue Note reissues, are coming from the exact same tired, worn tapes as their double 45s.

When it comes to what I listen to, in almost every single case, the vinyl is better than any digital format available, "HD" or otherwise. Stones and The Who? Vinyls better. Doors? Vinyl. Black Sabbath? Vinyl. You ain't heard "Paranoid" until you've heard the original '74 Quadraphonic. The DTS surround DVD they made out of the old Quad mix a few years back doesn't even get in the ballpark. '80s Metallica? Vinyl. '90s Pearl Jam? Vinyl. Etc etc etc.
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ultrabike

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2015, 12:36:04 AM »
So, what media is and was used to store audio masters?

I'm honestly starting to read on this. Wikipedia says that up till the 90's it was all done in tape. These days seems to be done in hard drives and/or digital tape. Is this correct?

Also found this interesting:
http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/analog-vinyl-vs-digital-audio

It seems in listenting tests Vinyl had the upper hand. The folks there reasoned that this was not due to the medium, as the writers of the article feel digital media is superior. Instead, it is argued that more care is taken into making Vinyl recordings vs digital recordings (factors being avoiding dynamic range compression and perhaps other stuff to minimize damage to the stylus) with end results indeed favoring Vinyl.

Anyhow. My question still remains though. What is/was the media used to store audio masters?
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Chris F

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2015, 02:38:01 AM »
Please correct me if I am wrong but I think current day masters are delivered at 24/96 although editing may take place at higher sample rates and the mastering facility may keep an "in house" master at the higher rate.  There are also all analog (AAA) re-issues being done as well for the vinyl market which go to tape.  A recent high profile example is the Beatles box set but there are plenty more.

(From experience) The quality of modern vinyl pressed in the top facilities (Pallas, Optimal, QRP etc...) is really good.  Flat discs, centered pressings, little to no surface noise.  I know for example QRP has put a lot of effort into adding computer control systems to their old presses to ensure a high level of consistency in the results.  I'm sure the other plants have similar systems in place.

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Marvey

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2015, 02:46:48 AM »
For material where the source wasn't digital (i.e. from tape), it does need an A-D conversion and then a D-A conversion before we can listen to it. Depending upon who or what you believe, and the quality of the equipment, these kinds of conversions can be detrimental to sound quality. There was more care in audio engineering (including mastering) in the "olden days" (as my kids put it -- watch the movie Studio City) and even today, mastering engineers working on vinyl have more freedom to do it correctly.

I tend to buy the same album (if I like it) several times. I don't worry about pressings. The Talking Heads Little Creatures that I bought (again) for $2.99 from Streetlight Records in San Jose 15 years ago sounds better* on the VPI Classic / Ortofon Black / TC-750 w/ AMB Sigma 11  than the 2007 CD (one of those rare good remasters) from Theta Data III / Yggdrasil. The self-titled Whitney Houston album that I originally purchased had it's moments of glory, alas, that record was run into shit by my friends and I during the 80s.

*Someone here said Yggdrasil was 350% better than the typical DS DAC. Using the 350% as a reference, I'd say my current vinyl setup is 700% better** than the Yggdrasil. This is assuming you can deal with pops, clicks, and surface noise; getting off your ass to flip the record; and not have ADD where you can listen diligently and sit through an entire album. Most people can't deal with that today, so the best option would be digital.

**More dynamic, more resolving, more realistic, more immediate, more palpable, richer timbres, deeper tones. Think of it as taking the best qualities of each and every the DAC you've ever heard in your life. Increase those qualities 10-33% on top of that, and then add pops, clicks, and surface noise.

Anyways, lets get back to Gumby. I'll be starting another thread more related to this off-topic.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 03:03:49 AM by Merv »
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Original_Ken

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2015, 02:58:45 AM »
Quote from: Geppetto on August 24, 2015, 12:36:04 AM
Anyhow. My question still remains though. What is/was the media used to store audio masters?
Until around 1980, recording were usually done to multi-track analog master tapes, and then mixed down to stereo two track analog master tapes.

When mastering to vinyl, the two track analog master tape would be RIAA EQ-ed to another two-track analog master tape that would be used to cut the vinyl master.

Around 1980, some studios changed to using digital U-matic videotapes as the master tape.

Quote (selected)
You ain't heard "Paranoid" until you've heard the original '74 Quadraphonic.

I have not done a rigorous comparison, but I do like the SHM-SACD's of early Sabbath.  Generally, I use "Vol. 4" as the test. "In spite of all the arsing around, musically those few weeks in Bel Air were the strongest we'd ever been"-Ozzy.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2015, 06:12:05 AM »
Quote from: Original_Ken on August 24, 2015, 02:58:45 AM
I have not done a rigorous comparison, but I do like the SHM-SACD's of early Sabbath.  Generally, I use "Vol. 4" as the test. "In spite of all the arsing around, musically those few weeks in Bel Air were the strongest we'd ever been"-Ozzy.

They're ok. The Quad mix was magic, though. The album was specially mixed specifically for that release, and it was the only Sabbath album ever to be done that way. Quadraphonic records were pretty much a bust. The mix and master of that '74 Quad is incredible, even played back in stereo. For the SACD they used the stereo mix, but they did port the Quad mix to a 4-channel 24/96 DVD-A release. It allows you to get some idea of what the vinyl is like, but that's all.

https://youtu.be/8yuHoNDUNCs
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aufmerksam

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Re: Yggdrasil vs Gungnir Multibit (Yggy vs. Gumby) Comprehensive Comparison
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2015, 06:44:25 AM »
Quote from: Original_Ken on August 23, 2015, 10:19:38 PM
Analog watches, shoestrings, vinyl, and mono.
Enough OT bullshit about vinyl, can we please circle back to when shoestrings stopped being popular?
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