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Author Topic: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?  (Read 7864 times)

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BassDigger

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Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« on: August 14, 2015, 08:50:41 AM »
Hello everyone, and welcome to my first thread-

There's a lot of talk about DACs, but what about the other half of the story?

Back in the 90's, even before the manufacturers gave us Delta-Sigma DACs, and told us it was hifi, they were 'watering down' the other (transport) side of the CD player 'box' with increasingly lightweight components. I guess that they got away with this because with the improved implementation (a better understanding of the then relatively new tech) they could maintain the sound quality.

Now today's generation are used to mp3 and computer/usb audio; perhaps, to most, a separate transport seems unnecessary. And then there are people who prefer spinning a disc; they know it's the best way; a dedicated transport gives the purest signal, with the least interference.
But my interest is that maybe there is a compromise: playing the files, like an mp3 player, but using quality formats, transports and dacs.

Elsewhere, someone has mentioned that this is still computer audio, just in a smaller box. But of course, you could say that a cd transport is also a computer.

I'm using an early SD card player transport (the QLS QA550), with a vintage/modified dac. I've never had a chance to A/B it against other transports (or dacs...or even usb audio). I'd like to know if anyone has experimented with these; there are an increasing number on the market, and of course, some are 'silly' expensive!

What do you think? Can we have some convenience, without losing the quality? Is a media file player/transport really capable of matching, or bettering, a disc spinning transport?

(I hope that people can give examples of what they hear, rather than what science says we should or shouldn't hear. But,  backing up your impressions with some science is fine. Also, I'm most interested in the opinions of those who have been able to make genuine comparisons, such as those who have made a direct comparison between transport techonologies E.g. CD vs PC or SD players. Thank you.)
Oh! BTW, I almost forgot; of course, the most important factor is the quality of the bass!  :)p8
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 12:48:09 PM by BassDigger »
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Anaxilus

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Re: Alternatives to USB audio or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 08:55:17 AM »
I have a QLS QA350 laying around gathering dust somewhere. I'll have to remember to dig it out sometime.
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BassDigger

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Re: Alternatives to USB audio or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2015, 09:01:03 AM »
 
Quote from: Anaxilus on August 14, 2015, 08:55:17 AM
I have a QLS QA350 laying around gathering dust somewhere. I'll have to remember to dig it out sometime.

 :D You're here already!

I can't remember if the qa350 has a digital out. Otherwise it'll be very dependant on the internal dac.  :-[
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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: Alternatives to USB audio or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 11:02:00 AM »
Getting data into the DAC is all that matters.

But... if we look back a decade or two, there are those that say that separating the transport  and the DAC of a CD player into two boxes was the worst thing to happen to CD players. The single-box solution is tightly coupled, no timing errors, no jitter... All that stuff "started" when people began to use external DACs.

Maybe... the creation of problems with expensive "solutions" is just an audiophile thing.

PS... of course, you don't have to use USB, which is but one way of getting the ones and zeros from computer to DAC. Whilst I suspect that USB's bad reputation is based on the dog having a bad name in USB1.0 days, which are long since over, I also harbour suspicions, especially when USB is used to power the DAC.

By the way: I have had plenty of trouble with computers that wouldn't play audio properly. I might be in the "all ones and zeros" camp, but that does not mean that I claim that all equipment is equal or perfect. It isn't.
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BassDigger

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Re: Alternatives to USB audio or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 12:40:19 PM »
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on August 14, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
Getting data into the DAC is all that matters.

But... if we look back a decade or two, there are those that say that separating the transport  and the DAC of a CD player into two boxes was the worst thing to happen to CD players. The single-box solution is tightly coupled, no timing errors, no jitter... All that stuff "started" when people began to use external DACs.

Maybe... the creation of problems with expensive "solutions" is just an audiophile thing.

PS... of course, you don't have to use USB, which is but one way of getting the ones and zeros from computer to DAC. Whilst I suspect that USB's bad reputation is based on the dog having a bad name in USB1.0 days, which are long since over, I also harbour suspicions, especially when USB is used to power the DAC.

By the way: I have had plenty of trouble with computers that wouldn't play audio properly. I might be in the "all ones and zeros" camp, but that does not mean that I claim that all equipment is equal or perfect. It isn't.

Good point. That's why previously, when I was in search of the best cd replay solution, I was only considering one-box players. Generally, it seems that there was a golden era, when the quality of both transport and dac peaked (almost in unison).

So, I guess the ideal (modern) solution would be a single box R-2R WAV (flac, etc) file player. (Does anybody know of such a thing?) QLS do the QA860, but it's got a DS dac (AD1955). I guess it'll be interesting to know how it compares to other devices with a similar dac. But, as it even includes an amplifier section (quite reasonably specced @ 2 watts into 32ohms), I don't think that it's quite endgame.

So, this brings us back to your main point "Getting data into the DAC is all that matters."

But even that gets confusing; do you mean just the data, as in FTP? Or, if the transport is 'playing' the file, how important is the timing (clock) info? The latest asynchronous clocking dacs are supposedly impervious to jitter, because they completely reclock the signal, as if it originated from within the dac. Are they really that good?

Otherwise the connection is all-important. If so, it has to be I2S, because that's the only one that includes the clocking signal, and that has to be kept short, very short.
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schiit

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 02:46:47 PM »
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on August 14, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
But... if we look back a decade or two, there are those that say that separating the transport  and the DAC of a CD player into two boxes was the worst thing to happen to CD players. The single-box solution is tightly coupled, no timing errors, no jitter... All that stuff "started" when people began to use external DACs.

Um, nope. The transport mechanism itself is the biggest source of jitter--by far. If you have 1X variation in DACs (due to component variations, etc), you'll have 10x variation in transports. Transports also go off-frequency with age and have dramatically increasing jitter with age. And yes, internally as well as via the digital outputs.
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Azteca X

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 02:54:49 PM »
Quote from: schiit on August 14, 2015, 02:46:47 PM
Um, nope. The transport mechanism itself is the biggest source of jitter--by far. If you have 1X variation in DACs (due to component variations, etc), you'll have 10x variation in transports. Transports also go off-frequency with age and have dramatically increasing jitter with age. And yes, internally as well as via the digital outputs.


Yeah, to me it's the same thinking that leads to external power supplies, or using a DAC that isn't just a PCI card in a computer - separation is your friend. And while computers might have all sorts of noise and electrical stuff flying around transports also produce heat, physically rattle things, etc etc.

All that being said: I have had very satisfying digital audio experiences that did not involve USB. I am very open to the idea of a purpose-built, super low noise digital transport. I know there are all sorts of $2K+ music servers out there claiming to be extra quiet but I am holding out for more (and for less)!
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OJneg

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 03:28:44 PM »
Quote from: schiit on August 14, 2015, 02:46:47 PM
Um, nope. The transport mechanism itself is the biggest source of jitter--by far. If you have 1X variation in DACs (due to component variations, etc), you'll have 10x variation in transports. Transports also go off-frequency with age and have dramatically increasing jitter with age. And yes, internally as well as via the digital outputs.


Schiit transport when?
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Azteca X

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 03:31:07 PM »
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Xen

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Re: Alternative transports to USB/PC or 'Spinning a disc'?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 03:33:26 PM »
Quote from: Azteca X on August 14, 2015, 02:54:49 PM
All that being said: I have had very satisfying digital audio experiences that did not involve USB. I am very open to the idea of a purpose-built, super low noise digital transport. I know there are all sorts of $2K+ music servers out there claiming to be extra quiet but I am holding out for more (and for less)!
Since the job of the digital transport is just to read the file stored on a media, wouldn't something like a Raspberry Pi, computer in a thumb drive, or computer in a wall wart be acceptable. Those things pretty much have no extraneous chips, just enough to run a CPU with power and I/O. You would then have it output to a external DAC. Those 1s and 0s should be pretty pristine.
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