CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => DIY => Topic started by: MisterRogers on February 01, 2015, 09:12:47 PM
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Hey Gang,
Brought up the R-2R DAC today. In an effort to use what I had available, it's more complicated than it needs to be for Soren's fantastic board. I'm using a 12V S03 to power the clean ISO side of the DAC, with 2 Reflector-D's (5V, 3.3V) to power the Sonore USB->I2S board, and supply the ISO 3.3 (dirty side) for the R-2R. The 2 Reflektor-D's are sharing a transformer, as they're powering the clean side of the Sonore, and the dirty side of the R-2R Iso. Unnecessary double rec-clocking going one - plus the top of the line oscillators on the Sonore are of little benefit...
I'll probably drop in an Amanero and save the Sonore for a different application.
Listening now, sounds very nice. R-2R's sure have a distinctive sound. More impressions later - need to take it in for awhile.
(http://www.prettygoodsoftware.net//DIY/R-2R.JPG)
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Awesome!
I wonder if the DAC ladder out would sound better than the balanced IC out?
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Good question - I'll give it a try soon. First I'll swap out the Sonore board for an Amanero; that will let me drop the 3.3V PS. In 'theory', I shouldn't hear any difference. As this board can also accept a 7V AC transformer directly, I'll give that a try too. The S03 board is just serving a a pre-reg, so it's probably overkill too. So lots of testing / playing to do still. Overall though, It's a pretty damn good sounding DAC. Some of the most notable aspects (sonically):
* Good spatial imaging. Very precise.
* Good tonality.
* As you would expect from an R-2R, very good attack / decay.
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I might be able to test mine out today. My part providers have been extremely slow lately.
Btw, are you having "plops" on Fs change?
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No, just a very slight 'tick' noise on sample rate changes. Probably has a lot to do with the USB / I2S receiving being used, and how it's handling rate changes.
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Good to hear! I have an Amanero slowly crawling its way to me (Italian snail mail is the snailiest mail).
Don't want to play the devil's advocate here, but care to do some sonic comparisons? Like the Buffalo dac for example.
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Heh. I will, though I need more time with it. Between my AKM 4495S Dual Mono project, R-2R, Another ESS 9018 Dac I'm testing for a friend... So many Dac's, so little time.
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I'm pretty curious about ladder DACs in general. Might have to give this project a go.
On a side note, what is the USB --> I2S stage for?
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The Soekris DAC board takes signal as I2S. USB converter is needed for computer/dap to connect the dac.
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Oversampling filter built into the board I figure - since it takes i2s?
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Yep, it does oversample. Reportedly Soren tried NOS and wasn't too impressed by the measurements as well as the sound. The DAC has 24bits maximum input word length, but runs at 28bits with the extra 4bit headroom for volume control.
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It lives!
(http://i.imgur.com/9FficSV.jpg)
Sound extremely promising. With the exception of nasty plops which most likely are caused by Amanero loosing signal on Fs changes.
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Great! Glad to have another pirate working on this too. Tomorrow I'm going to switch to an Amanero and use it to provide the ISO 3.3V power. I really want to get a sense as to any gain in using a Reflektor-D to power the ISO 3.3v vs. just powering with the Amanero.
Yea, no plops at all for me, but that's all about the Sonore USB board muting between frequency changes.
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Would love to get my hands on a fully built unit sometime. Doesn't this allow you to load custom digital filters? Design might not work well for NOS (you all know I'd still want to try it), but I'd at least like to try a low-ringing/low-oversampling sort of filter option.
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Yea, in the not too distant future we'll probably have access to a variety of user loadable filters.
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Not only does this DAC has very good tonality, even technicalities are top notch. Very impressed!
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Agreed. For a first article, it's sonically very strong. It's getting a lot of attention in the community too - which should result in lots of knowledge on tuning, etc. Very happy with it.
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Hi guys, this just caught my attention...sounds promising...I'm planning to get the 02 board and the 12V power supply from Soekris...will I be needing any other accessories?
Thanks
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Hi guys, this just caught my attention...sounds promising...I'm planning to get the 02 board and the 12V power supply from Soekris...will I be needing any other accessories?
Thanks
Probably a input board, that gives out I2S. The likes of Amanero or JLsounds boards.
I'm planning the same setup myself.
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(http://i.imgur.com/9FficSV.jpg)
CCCP legacy lamp switch, lol.
Does the board come with xlr-s?
Looks like your's and MrRoger's have the same xlr connectors.
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Since surface-mount started, I can't even identify many components on a board. That one I could frame and put on the wall. Amazing!
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CCCP legacy lamp switch, lol.
Does the board come with xlr-s?
Looks like your's and MrRoger's have the same xlr connectors.
Light switch make sound like sovyit 200W lemp - not too bright but oh so so stronk and warm! (Jason should adopt using these!)
And yes, the XLR's come supplied.
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Probably a input board, that gives out I2S. The likes of Amanero or JLsounds boards.
I'm planning the same setup myself.
Thanks. What about the toroid tranny that the specs refer to?
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looks sweet guys.
excellent choice in music Rude. "In the Court of the Crimson King" is an awesome album.
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Yeah, 21st Century Schizoid Man is a great track to see how the DAC handle busy passages and further tracks are good for tonality.
You should check this DAC out, Fish, unless you already are knee deep in JLSounds newest concoction.
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nah, i'm sticking to my Gung.
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Not only does this DAC has very good tonality, even technicalities are top notch. Very impressed!
Can you share notes in comparison to something else you have?
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Clearly trumps my Stello DA-100 Signature. More neutral sound, more detail and microdynamics are in another league.
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Thanks.
Luckily enough i have heard the Stello DA100.
Compared to my BMC the Stello had better bass/lower midrange tone, but overall less resolving and kind of fuzzy. Also warmer and a bit strident in highs. I wonder how much the usb reciever was bottle-necking. I have read that the spidf input sounds better.
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Hey what resistor version did you guys get?
I followed the DiyAudio thread and it seems the 0.01% version won't be improvement over 0.02%
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It measures a little better but the 0.02% is the top of the price/performance stack for me. The 0.05% is inadequate for my wants.
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This is some exiting scheiBe! I'll get the middle version then.
If this thing beats my BMC, it'll be hilarious. I might as well take down my FS thread here.
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Just uploaded the 'MixPhase1' 44.1 filter into my R-2R; much better! I suspect that in 2-4 weeks we'll have an assortment of filters for all sample rates.
For those that know I'm up to my elbows in DAC's, 44.1 with this filter is not as good as the AK4495S, but it settles the question in my mind as to whether this DAC can achieve very good performance.
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I'm curious now. Is the AK4495S of yours a kit or made from scratch?
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I've been collaborating with with JLSounds for the last ~8 months to design it.
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It will be available for purchase in their web site soon?
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Hopefully mate. Firmware is for the most part done, we're doing some final tuning. From there, is whatever time lead in getting the parts.
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Great times.
So how much impact the seperate power supplies make on the Soren's dac?
People from DiyAudio are saying it is somewhat harsh and 2D sounding, would you say it is more down to the filter arrangements, or the PS?
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Can't really say definitely; still haven't received the transformer that is suitable to drive it directly. My suspicion is though, it's the ISO 3.3v / Reflektor-D that's elevating the performance the most over say the 3.3v as tapped from an Amanero. My experience say that the SSR03 is helping a bit too. Time and again engineers build PS's onboard they believe do not lack, and yet can be improved upon (even in a pre-reg configuration such as this).
I'm listening to it now running Pauls minimum phase filter and there's no harshness, wide accurate sound stage, very good.
So when the dust settles, I suspect it'll be both - very good DC supplies + the right filters.
Soren hinted at a version without onboard PS's or output circuits - hope he gets to it; that'll really allow builders to play. But as it is, this DAC will certainly stay in my rotation.
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Had the chance to listen to Soekris DAC last week. Foobar>Amanero>stock Soekris 0.2% with stock filter and 50VA transf.
I slightly preferred it with the buffered output. My impressions are quite positive. No harshness or artifacts, nice wide soundstage and timbre. Maybe the bass was a tad shy and I would like a bit more "air". Still it bettered the 500 euro commercial DAC I had in that day for evaluation.
If Soerkis actually produces a board with no regs or output circuits I might bite and build one myself.
The friend who brought it to my place is writing some code for an arduino controller, here is his blog
http://www.dimdim.gr/2015/02/soekris-r-2r-interfacing-to-an-arduino/
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As the loadable filters mature, it's only getting better :-)
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I'll try to pick up an USB to Serial converter to try out the new filters.
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It's actually kind of enjoyable - a quick download and flash, and you have a new DAC (sonically) :-)
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This is the most audiophile DAC out there. Buy once, go crazy with filter rolling...
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Exactly :-) I've been playing the NOS filter through the weekend; It's pretty damn good. Maybe slightly fatiguing over time, but super dynamic / and detailed.
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I'm rolling with TNT's MB1 filter. Highs have improved very much!
P.S. I wonder if filter switching could be implemented via external processor board. Maybe something like a Raspberry.
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NOS filter slightly fatiguing over time but detailed? That's not what I would expect.
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Give the MB2b filter some play mates - it's the best I've heard this R-2R.
Re: NOS fatiguing - lots of aliasing artifacts when running NOS, with a fair amount of high frequency hash. It sounds very detailed and lively, but after awhile.... I think I can listen longer than many with my impaired hearing 15K and higher.
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I'm currently rolling the MB2c, sounds good. Will try the b.
Interesting. Currently setting up the MB2b throws my DAC into a restarting cycle, I wonder what causes this.
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Others reported that too. Loaded fine for me. Tried again and it failed :-(
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Hey all - grab the CrapMagic filter from the diyaudio filter thread. By far the best yet. Very very nice.
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Following this thread and hifiduino's blog with a lot of interest!
By way of background - I have really enjoyed building a couple of bh amps, battery powered amps and have a wire se-se half done on my bench, but I was wondering if any of you more experienced builders might field a couple of total nub questions regarding diy dac setups and power supplies as I try to envision, big picture, what a soekris build might look like.
The new details spelled out on hifiduino (https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/soekris-dam-1021-r-2r-dac-users-guide/), appear to use three regulated psu's: (1) running into the pwr in headers on the main dac board, in liue of powering it with ac straight from a transformer; (2) to power a diyinhk usb -> i2s source, which evidently has superior oscillators to an amanero but requires an external 3.3v power source; and (3) for the iso +3.3v header on the dac board. I guess maybe the i2s and iso +3.3v can both be powered off a dual board like: http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/46-17uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v55v-1ax4.html ? Do I have that much right?
I gather the far simpler, but less sophisticated alternative, would be to run a single transformer straight to the dac board to take advantage of the onboard supply, and then to add in something like an amanero for usb -> i2s. amanero also has a 3.3v ouput, and then you use that to power the iso +3.3v?
If you run the more complex setup, I understand this will require an appropriate transformer for each psu board. Can those transformers simply be wired in parallel with the IEC jack? And is it standard practice, as in the case of bh kits, to connect the earth ground pin of the IEC to the chassis? I'm comfortable (I think) with wiring up the signal portion of the build, but I wish I could find a simple primer on how to properly wire the IEC, transformer(s), and psu board end of things. I know for example, properly mounting a transformer with isolation washers in the right locations is critical to a safe build, but without a manual to guide me, I'm afraid I'm clueless. (E.g., Hifiduino depicts an amveco transformer on the page linked above that looks like it is intended for through-hole mounting. How would one go about putting something like that in a standard chassis - up on a breadboard on standoffs?) Thanks much for any guidance you guys can offer.
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Here is my take:
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/540/6htr3a.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/f06htr3aj)
It is the 0,05% version, my opinion on this is that it would not make any audible difference (but some may disagree), and makes the project quite cheaper.
DIYInhk receiver: http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/58-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb.html
with lm317@ 3,3v supplying also the board, and the board supplied with lm317/337 @+/-12V
In cheap project box which i modified slightly (with allen screws in front) and added the receiver's frequency lock leds on the faceplate.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/InHQ2G.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/exInHQ2Gj)
At the moment stock filters and long term listening.
Next will be triple Salas Bib's and a line stage.
Looking at the AMB a20 would you recommend this? is there anything else that doesn't go stellar in price? (only class A solid state)
I like this very much, and i might say that soundstage is greater then the Audiobyte Black Dragon i was listening to for a few days. Detail is great without being fatiguing, and as you can see i am listening through a system that could cause fatigue (mojo/hd800's), overall a happy sailor, i am.
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Nice work Chris! Yep, raw output is definitely better. Be sure to provide high quality 3.3v to the 'dirty' ISO connection; makes an audible improvement. If the BIB's are for upgrading the power of this DAC, I'd highly suggest the Reflector-D's instead. BIB's are great for analog, Reflector-D's will excel powering digital circuits.
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I have already parts and boards for Bib, i dont have anything for the Reflector_D, i thought it should be ok, or do you recomend me getting them?
I am trying to avoid extra expences if possible with out having to loose out on performance.
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BIB's pretty good with digital circuits - you'll want to use Silmic II's or similar at key cap positions. But - Reflektor-D's resulted in a clear, audible improvement when applied to digital circuits. I have a drawer of BIB's I've swapped out of a couple of DAC's :-)
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Do they make Reflector-D kits anymore?
I have the Dam laying on my bench waiting for input board and psu(-s).
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Tea-Bag at diyaudio runs a group guy every few months. There's a signup list - he's close to doing another run.
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Tea-Bag at diyaudio runs a group guy every few months. There's a signup list - he's close to doing another run.
Thanks for posting this mrrogers - sounds like this gb is worth jumping on as an alternative to just dropping in some diyinhk ultra low noise dac psu boards. Looked at some of salas' posted measurements, and they are really impressive.
Do you have a clear preference for the ssr03, as opposed to say a sslv or something else, for the +-12v supply?
Following some further digging and reading, I think I've managed to answer most of my own questions above. I was all muddled up reading about circulating current issues if you try to run two trafos without the same voltage and turn ratios off the same IEC (which understandably, is not an issue in a dual mono supply because the trafos are the same right?).
[Edit: Or does this issue only come up if you are running differing trafos in parallel, attached to the same load? I first thought Chris' photo looked like there might be 2 power cords and IEC inlet jacks, as a way of avoiding this, but maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me? Would you guys mind sharing what transformers you are using for the psu boards and whether you use a single or multiple IEC's?]
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I am using single IEC and connecting all the trafos on the IEC output directly (no daisy chain).
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^^ What Chris said. I am very fond of the SSR03, but I haven't tried an sslv in this application. As the board contains LDO's powering each critical section, it may work just fine.
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Thank you both very much for the guidance!
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No worries D-Mike - we're happy to help.
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Chris1967 came by my place tonight and we auditioned his Soekris DAC on my main system. As transport we used the new Raspberry pi2 with a selection of classic and jazz music up to 24/192. We played only through the unbuffered outputs. Stock filter too.
The Soekris is melodic, has a nice sense of flow and natural timbre. As minor faults I would point out the not granitic bottom octave and a small lack of air in upper mid-high frequencies. Definitely far from the typical ΔΣ sound.
Dedicated output modules should be on the menu, which ones is still under investigation. Tomorrow we will put it up against the Marantz HD DAC1, Pioneer U05 and Audiobyte Black Dragon..
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The filter swap is a must!
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Agreed - a couple of the most recent filters are quite an improvement
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Yes, Chris intends to swap the filter soon, probably will go for the CrapMagic one.
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I am very fond of the SSR03
Isn't the SSR03 a massive overkill here?
I am just wondering if same performance for this job could be done in a smaller footprint.
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Isn't the SSR03 a massive overkill here?
I am just wondering if same performance for this job could be done in a smaller footprint.
It very well may be. Over the last few years I've taken to providing the very best, appropriate PS; even more so if digital circuits are being powered. Too many times working up the ladder with DAC PS's - in most cases hearing a subjective improvement. It may not matter in this application, but it's mattered in most.
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Fair enough. I will try my own ladder up. It looks though that i won't escape from the Ref-D's.
Recent developments in battery banks have made me think of portable R-2R. The Dam footprint is smaller than i anticipated at first.
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BIB's pretty good with digital circuits - you'll want to use Silmic II's or similar at key cap positions. But - Reflektor-D's resulted in a clear, audible improvement when applied to digital circuits. I have a drawer of BIB's I've swapped out of a couple of DAC's :-)
Dear MisterRogers,
Thanks for the heads-up on the Reflektor-D kits. I have some clarification I hope you can help with.
I'm currently running the R-2R with Amanero and 1 toroidal xformer 2x7V 7W. If I am to order the Reflektor-D, I only need 1 kit that comes from the xformer and feeds to the J3 of the R-2R, correct?
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You need symmetrical negative and positive power supply +/-, so you need two boards one for positive and one for negative.
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To replace the 7V transformer (AC) with a DC PS, you'll need 12V and bipolar (+ / -) as Chris said. I use Reflektor-D to power the ISO 3.3V pin, which is often fed from the 3.3V out of the Amanero. I've verified this; upgrading to a Reflektor-D here improves sonics.
I use the SSR03 to provide the bipolar 12V in my build. While you can use two 'D''s in a bipolar configuration, it's designed to only supply between 3.3V - 7V. A couple of BIB's would work.
Dear MisterRogers,
Thanks for the heads-up on the Reflektor-D kits. I have some clarification I hope you can help with.
I'm currently running the R-2R with Amanero and 1 toroidal xformer 2x7V 7W. If I am to order the Reflektor-D, I only need 1 kit that comes from the xformer and feeds to the J3 of the R-2R, correct?
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I got in the GB for one Reflector-D to power my USB receiver.
Do you recomend the Bibs for the DAC or do you think another two reflectors can do it? dont you think the voltage will be too low at 7V?
The price for the SSR03 is absolutely ridiculous (for the populated board 535Euro wtf?) in what way do you think this will (or might be) better than the Bib's?
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Yea, that's pretty crazy. Just PM's you with a deal - you'll need to decide fast as I have another buyer. Comparing the Reflector-D / BIB; the D is very focused, specifically built to produce the best wave in the range that matters most to digital. It's low parts count helps keep noise very low. BIB is more dynamic, and thus better for analog.
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Thanks Mike, i guess i have to think about this more... and have to decline on your generous offer on the SSR03 for the moment.
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To replace the 7V transformer (AC) with a DC PS, you'll need 12V and bipolar (+ / -) as Chris said. I use Reflektor-D to power the ISO 3.3V pin, which is often fed from the 3.3V out of the Amanero. I've verified this; upgrading to a Reflektor-D here improves sonics.
I use the SSR03 to provide the bipolar 12V in my build. While you can use two 'D''s in a bipolar configuration, it's designed to only supply between 3.3V - 7V. A couple of BIB's would work.
Thanks MisterRogers. Just ordered myself a Reflector-D kits. How much do you suppose the SSR03 improve the performance compared to a diyink PS or a transformer?
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Good questions; haven't tried another PS or direct AC. I do have other PS's around (317) - I'll swap them in when I can and compare.
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Here is my take:
Looking at the AMB a20 would you recommend this? is there anything else that doesn't go stellar in price? (only class A solid state)
I found out that Lampizator sells kits and built boards, if funds allow i'm gonna try one out.
Lampizator kits (http://lampizator.eu/shop/viewitem.php?productid=262)
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1:10 amplification? and 1K output impedance? Are you sure this is a good match for Soeren's DAC?
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Yea, it really isn't; considered trying one myself. I'm working on a Kuartlotron PCB layout right now - I'll probably give that a try with the R-2R
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Perhaps some of these Lampi kits can be modified as buffer with no gain. That is if one m_u_s_t have toobs in dac. On paper the Dam really needs no help though.
Coincidently i just worked through the Kuartlotron guide few days back. Very interesting stuff.
Too bad i didn't go for EE degree. I'm like a child, every new thingy amazes me in electronics.
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No EE degree here; no CS degree either and I've made a good living as a software developer. I've been teaching myself electronics / analog / digital audio circuits over the past 5 years. We're alike - it's all amazing to me too :-)
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Perhaps some of these Lampi kits can be modified as buffer with no gain. That is if one m_u_s_t have toobs in dac. On paper the Dam really needs no help though.
Coincidently i just worked through the Kuartlotron guide. Very interesting stuff.
Too bad i didn't go for EE degree. I'm like a child, every new thingy amazes me in electronics.
No EE degree here; no CS degree either and I've made a good living as a software developer. I've been teaching myself electronics / analog / digital audio circuits over the past 5 years. We're alike - it's all amazing to me too :-)
What did you do to teach yourself electronics? I would love to be able to design stuff myself, but it's a bit difficult to get started dealing with transistors, tubes, and power supply stuff.
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Read, build, deconstruct circuits, ask questions, etc. School was always too slow for me. I started my CS class work many years ago (~30+), and somewhere in the first semester I walked out, decided I'd do better on my own. I remember the moment; I was in a Cobol class, writing code on a Commodore Pet computer - when a commercial came on the teachers small TV, advertising the new Apple Computer. Right then and there, I decided that's what I wanted to do, not learn an old mainframe language - and walked out.
We all learn differently - I've always done better chucking myself in the deep end :-)
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What did you do to teach yourself electronics? I would love to be able to design stuff myself, but it's a bit difficult to get started dealing with transistors, tubes, and power supply stuff.
Like MisterRogers said it is individual. I got started by a project in an artificial muscles (ionic electroactive polymers) lab in one of my university's research centers and was sort of forced to design ultra low voltage/current measurement schemes from scrach. I had no usable background either. So it went on, i took classes in electronics, read some books, tried to understand devices datasheets and started dissecting old devices to study their operation principles. That's where i get my parts now ;) And suddenly electronics started to make sense.
Most useful learning is done by building stuff and looking at theory at the same time from a book. There are many great beginners books available. PM me i can share some.
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Try the new Nyquist filters. They sound really cool!
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Yea, I plan on loading them up tonight :-)
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Any more impressions compared to other dac
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The C128_100 filter is by far my favorite still.
The un-buffered output is absolute must for low level resolving with my gear. My Genelec monitors out-resolve HD800-s at the moment, which shouldn't be happening, it makes no sense. p:8
It is probably the Sansui class AB (very low bias) that is the bottleneck for HD800-s. But so are Genelec's chip amp class AB and not very high bias.
This dac reveals trailing of sounds and these tiny fluid pieces of music that i had no clue existed in tracks i have listened to so many years.
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I almost want to get one of these, just so that I can mess around with it after Mike Moffat finishes his white paper on Yggy's filter.
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If you are not going Yggdrasil way, then imo this is no-brainer. I would think it could serve purpose even next to Ygg because of its tuning potential.
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If you are not going Yggdrasil way, then imo this is no-brainer. I would think it could serve purpose even next to Ygg because of its tuning potential.
My Yggy arrived yesterday. I've been eyeing @MisterRogger's dac for a while now, and the temptation is growing.
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Hey mates - just sold the Soren R-2R. I'll be building another one within the next month or so, but needed the funds for my Yggy - which is a must. Since I have all the parts to build another (except for the DAC board), it wasn't a difficult decision.
I know Yggy's fantastic enough to more than tide me over, but I'm already looking forward to building another one. The latest filters really are quite good.
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Plenty of folks at DIYA community providing useful stuff for this DAC. New filters coming out every second day, protection circuits being developed and a friend of mine even developed a kickass input/control board.
Too bad that there's almost no support coming from Soren himself.
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Yea, agreed. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first month, but now...
I have one of the control boards; nice work :-)
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Mike, i would be very interested on your thoughts on how Dam with different filters sounds vs Yggdrasil.
Here in EU Schiit stuff is delayed, it might take a while before i can do this myself.
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Looks like I'll have about a week of overlap from when Yggy arrives (early next week) and when I ship the R-2R to Russia. I'll be early in Yggy's 'bake', but sure - happy to share.
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selling and shipping things to russia is scurry! good luck misterrogers.. yeah I"m a little disappointed in the lack of updates from soren.. at least a "i'm working on blah, should be done around month blah or possbly blah" would be good
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The buyer uses a reshipper in the states here; should be less scary than usual. Also, he bought without transformers so the reduced weight / imbalance should help.
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Couple of guys have been asking impressions, so i decided to share as my new toy syndrome is mostly over.
I use un-buffered ladder output. This is a must for low level sounds, texture and 3D soundstage.
The sound is impacted a lot from filters, i use Nyguist ''C128_100dp'' by spzzzkt right now.
I use a simple regulated LPS for power and JLsounds USB interface. Reportedly some quality power can improve things further.
Bass:
Vs everything i have heard so far, the dam has excellent bass performance. Compared to D-S dacs i have owned, the D-S dacs have next to no resolution in bass at all. BMC puredac is finest D-S i have had and it is a blurry mess in bass vs the Dam in direct a-b comparo. The bass has room information from Dam. Very first time i listened to the Dam i thought the bass sucked. Soft, cheesy and weak in volume. This was because i listened to Biffy Clyro. Once i loaded some Daft Punk or Hanz Zimmer or Tool i almost fell off of my chair.
Mids:
With this filter, no hash, no grain. Meat on bones. I am beginning to really appreciate HD800 midrange.
There is life to the vocals i have previously only heard through vinyl turntable setup.
Highs:
In some ways this was the most shocking part for me. The highs are much more extended and resolving up to my hearing limits. I was under false belief that anything past 9-10kHz has no significant meaning. Ahh, no glare either.
Soundstage:
Real 3D, not like a wall of sounds. Most annoying thing for me while listening headphones is this 'paper-stage', sounds come from sides, above and under, nothing in front or behind, all D-S dacs i have heard have this shape of soundstage, only some are not showing it clearly. I instantly remembered the soundstage shape of an Ayon CD player, that i think had pcm1702 or pcm1704 chips.
Bass has room cues, even with speakers. To me it is spooky. I got a glimpse of that with HD800, but i first thought it was their shortcoming. Now i know better.
Recordings ambiance and soundstage shape is extremely recording dependent. Some tracks come out of a tin can while others are reminiscent of a choir in cathedral. Good ones are awesome.
Comparing to other filters i think this one needs the most work on sounstage shape, it sometimes feels like being under a roof. Maybe height is missing a bit. This could easily be just some of the recordings that i have, i know better once i setup my speakers in larger room.
Resolving power:
It is clear that this dac can out-resolve good/decent amplifiers. This was not a problem for me with BMC. I need to upgrade my chain for HD800. So far Genelec monitors out-resolve HD800, which is very unexpected.
Separation, clarity:
The Dam never runs out of 'steam' in complex passages, i thought this was a strength of BMC, but it got dethroned here too, easily. Nothing sticks together in multi-organ+bass guitar passages. BMC was great at that in midrange, but ran short in bass and highs.
Filters: So far i think the C128 is the best filter, among best resolving and tonally most neutral, maybe slightly dark. It retains original samples. Has slow roll off, so it is ca 3..4dB down at 20KHz. But only a dB down at 19kHz. Other good ones have larger soundstage or are airier sounding, but are not sounding as real to me.
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Thks for those impressions. :money:
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Looks like I'll have about a week of overlap from when Yggy arrives (early next week) and when I ship the R-2R to Russia. I'll be early in Yggy's 'bake', but sure - happy to share.
Mike,
it is interesting that you will build another one despite owning an Yggy - let us know how they compare.
We can delay the shipment if you need some more time with the DAM. ;)
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It's just the sheer enjoyment of hearing the filters slowly dial in. It's a lot like looking through a camera viewfinder; and you zoom in and out, adjust your focus and aperture. The quality of the filters that are recently available are such a huge leap from the start.
Now.... It's no Yggy. I'm running the Soren at work and Yggy at home. Yggy's in another league - but that's a true statement with most DAC's.
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Out of curiosity - when you build your successor dam1021, do you think you will go with another .02% board or step up to .01%?
I ended up springing for a yggy as well for my home rig, and it is really wonderful with the mainline. Still very interested in building up a soekris dac for my desk at work though and trying to decide whether to just go with a bare-bones approach, a mid-level diyihnk kit based build or to use serious psu's like ref-D, ssr03 etc.
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this is the diyinhk usb to i2s module you're talking about? http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/58-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_pcb
is there anything else they sell for the soekris? your talk of a mid level kit from them intrigued me
edit: oh I found this higher end usb to i2s board
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html#/xmos_option-xmos_and_led_pcb
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there is already isolation on the soekris board you dont need the isolation on your receiver.
i have the the first one and it works just fine.
i have powered it with Salas Reflector-D and it made a hell of an improvement compared to the simple lm317 i was using previously
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this is the diyinhk usb to i2s module you're talking about? http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/58-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_pcb
is there anything else they sell for the soekris? your talk of a mid level kit from them intrigued me
edit: oh I found this higher end usb to i2s board
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html#/xmos_option-xmos_and_led_pcb
In the hifiduino blog, I think he uses a simple cheap bipolar psu board from them for the main board as well. (See: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/soekris-dam-1021-r-2r-dac-users-guide/#comment-28745 ) MisterRogers used a much sexier SSR03 for this.
Thanks Chris for the comment on the Ref-D. Since you guys both hear that as a significant improvement, is sounds like it is definitely worth including in any serious build.
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Nearly done now,
Salas Reflector-D on the DIYINHK receiver (@3,3V) and two Salas Bib on the Soekris (@12V)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/909/0cqnJK.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/p90cqnJKj)
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whoa I like how you used pin headers for the rca instead of directly soldering. do I see 4 rca and 2 xlr jacks? both bufferred and unbufferred rca?
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Thanks uncola!! :)p1
There are 3 outputs from the Soekris:
1. Unbuffered single ended
2. Buffered single ended
3. Buffered balanced
I had originally rigged it for all 3 outputs for test purposes, that's why you see in the picture two single ended rca outputs and one blanced xlr output.
Now that i have tried them out, i prefer only the unbuffered single ended output, and you see in the picture that i have only that one connected.
The balanced xlr and one of the rca pair are not connected any longer.
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Nearly done now,
Salas Reflector-D on the DIYINHK receiver (@3,3V) and two Salas Bib on the Soekris (@12V)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/909/0cqnJK.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/p90cqnJKj)
Nice work Chris!
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Thanks man!! :)p7
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yes, awesome sauce.
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NOS filter slightly fatiguing over time but detailed? That's not what I would expect.
You should check it out Hans. The NOS square wave waveforms posted on DIYA are impressive - the DAC acts like a signal generator.
Analogue LPF at ~250 kHz. If you input 352/384 kHz it bypasses the first FIR filter. The second 8x filter can't be avoided, but you can set it to NOS mode only, which only 8x zero pads in time domain but doesn't interpolate - this upsampling shouldn't produce any aliases in audible domain and aliases should be removed via 250 kHz analogue filter.
If I get one, I'd do my upsampling in PC (going to try pre-upsample my files to 352/384 kHz via "exact interpolation" process (process I think Yggy filter is based on)) and just run Soren's DAC in NOS.
Edit: Yeh I don't recommend running NOS at 44 khz... aliases up the wazoo...
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Hello Priidik,
as I can see we have a similar setup:
I use a simple regulated LPS for power and JLsounds USB interface.
My DAM1021 is connected to the JLSOUNDS I2SoverUSB. I use a 5V linear supply for the galvanic isolated side of I2SoverUSB and a 3.3V ultralow noise TPS7A4700 regulator for DAM isolator chips.
I configured DAM input as automatic (INPSLCT0 and INPSLCT01 open)
I use Foobar player.
I've got a very annoying issue: every track change suffers from a 3 sec pause/fade in.
By default the issue reported concerns sample rate change but I have it when every track of the same album starts.
So I loose the first 3 secs of every track: I can see DAM signal lock led starting to blink (no signal or no lock) for 1 sec every new track of the same album, then the music starts with the 3 secs fade in.
Do you have a similar issue? Have I to configure DAM input as manual to I2S ((INPSLCT0 and INPSLCT01 to GND)?
Tnx
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That dac could benefit from factory-made nonlinearity measurement and corresponding compensation, then it won't have any disadvantages compared to laser-trimmed R2R chips. Though that could require a more powerful FPGA.
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Hi gents!
Anyone tried to mod the +/-4V ref yet?
(It had quite a bit of signal related pollution peaking at 12kHz, person to thank for this discovery is Alecm from DIYA)
If not, i highly recommend so. In my setup previous mods (clean supplies for osc-s and dam itself) have made 3-5% improvement. Filters perhaps 10-15%, if i must quantify.
The 4V ref mod is more like 30% improvement. Significant step up in soundstage size and precision, better dynamics contrasts. Bass is slightly better defined and has more impact. Much more space between sounds now. Going back, the stock sound is kinda raw and grainy now vs the upgraded 4V ref. Yes, i went back a couple of times i messed up.
The term used here gray vs black background is also valid here i think. Background is emptier, darker.
I replaced the smd ceramics on 4x supply bypass to 47uF ones + added a good quality Wurth Elektronik 10mOhm, 630uF polymer on each shift register's Vcc -- GND. (overkill, i know)
I have not touched the supplies opamp gain yet (i'm too lasy to track down those smd resistors). Reportedly the 10ohm resistor in the feedback loop is the main culprit there.
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Awesome work mate! I flipped mine - needed the cash for 'inbound' gear (Yggy, HE1K). I'll be building another one soon - we'll, soon being after I have funds saved for my EC Studio :-) Not surprised to hear about the results of the 4V mods.
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Hey guys -
Was wondering if anyone here had tried a different output stage they liked better than the unbuffered SE?
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The new firmware is out! http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/259488-reference-dac-module-discrete-r-2r-sign-magnitude-24-bit-384-khz-328.html#post4421518
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Hey mates!
A friends Yggdrasil spent a month on my desk.
I figured I should share my thoughts on Dam vs Yggdrasil vs BMC before my memory or notes of Yggs (i don't like the word Yggy personally, sry) sound fade.
Soundstage: Dam has less fleshed out instruments geometrically than Yggs, some very fine sounds are missing in 3d space as well in Dam. Overall the shape and size is very similar b/w the two. Imaging precision is comparable b/w the two. Image size differences are easier to make out with Yggs. Some sounds pop more from Dam, dunno if its diverging from realism or not. BMC soundstage is super claustraphobic in comparison, esp with speakers. I have jet to hear a S-D dac that does proper depth in soundstage.
Yggs 10
Dam 8
BMC 2
Tonal balance: Yggs has slightly more inner warmth than Dam, but not the kind of warmth that comes from tubes. BMC is coldest of the three. Bass and treble tone and quality are almost the same from Yggs and Dam. Lower mids are slightly laid back from Dam. BMC clearly has issues with faithfull vocal reproduction. BMC (or any other S_D dac I have heard) has almost no meaningful information in top two octaves, just noise and garbage. Really, the extension is missing. Yggs has some sort of smokiness to lower register vocals, like alto and lower. It's like a good 10yo single malt.
Yggs 10
Dam 9
BMC 5
Macrodynamics (MaD): The Yggs gives this one to Dam in most cases. The Dam has sharper, more lively, energetic presentation. Transients explode into existance, if it makes sense. Yggs is very slightly soft in direct comparison. In some occasions the Yggs sounds sturdier, stronger, maybe its sustain of sounds is better and more realistic. Background blackness is actually comparable between Yggs and Dam after last mod I made to my Dam. BMC is just soft and lifeless in comparison to the others, despite being the best S-D dac in this regard I have heard.
Yggs 9
Dam 10
BMC 4
Microdynamics (MiD): Yggs is breathing easier between soft sounds vs Dam. Dam is feeling slightly empty sounding as a result, like some sections of room are missing. Maybe the correct term would be continuity, that is better from Yggs. I think the microdynamics part is responsible for some trails and tails of sounds that Yggs does and Dam does not. A good analogy is a professional singer who spells out words vs a amateur singer who does not completely. The gap widened when Yggs was playing back music for a week, ie got warm. Warm up influences Dam the same way, but is less troublesome. BMC is just severely lacking in realism vs the others. The whole presentation of BMC is both grainy and soft at the same time probably as a result of lacking in MiD and MaD.
Yggs 10
Dam 8
BMC 2
TL-DR
In most cases realism is better from Yggdrasil. 3 tracks out of 10 the Dam is the more exiting or even more realistic sounding device, but Yggs gives away less to Dam than Dam gives away to Yggs. It is safe to say the Yggs slightly outclasses the Dam.
Yesterday when Yggs was removed from my grasp I already begun to miss it. The Dam does the technicalities almost as good as Yggs, but some sort of magic is missing. I can only blame the real 20bit precison in this, maybe i'm wrong. BMC just sucks in comparison.
Gear used:
Random PC or Raspy2(Volumio) as source.
Yggs (SE)/Dam --> Passive SMD stepper --> Genelec 8050A Used most of the time, showcasing differences b/w dacs better than anything else I had.
Yggs (SE)/Dam --> Passive SMD stepper --> Adam A3x / Adam A5x
Yggs(SE)/Dam --> Passive SMD stepper --> Cavalli Ehha rev A (moded)--> HD650/HD800(Anax'd) Second best reference rig I had.
Yggs(BAL)/Dam --> Pinnacle --> HD800(Anax'd)
Worth noting: the super modded Dam I have is pretty much 2x better sounding than simplest stock version can be.
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Thanks for the comparo priidik. You actually put dam closer to yggs than I thought it would be, very promising. I would love to build one if I could find the time...
The new firmware is out! http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/259488-reference-dac-module-discrete-r-2r-sign-magnitude-24-bit-384-khz-328.html#post4421518
New mode setting: Normal, Inverted, Balanced Left, Balanced Right
New firmware allows dual mono? :)p1
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I would love to build one if I could find the time...
If not for the fun of building a Dam, I'd go straight to the MB Gungnir for slightly (if any, due to mods one has to make to Dam + case) more money, given that it is per Marv and Co nearly as good as Yggs.
How nearly, I dunno but it is likely that the multibit Gungnir is still a bit better dac than the Dam, at least in microdynamics and thus the Dam is not the king of value any more in the higher end of dacs, I'm afraid.
At this point preferences and/or downstream gear could be in decisive role, too.
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My big project would be to do an eight channel Minisharc plus 4xDAM setup for fully digital crossover, room compensation system.
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That would be pure epicness popcorn
Such cross-over'ed by Dams properly class A amped diy speaker should scale to heavens.
The latest upgrades in Dam and introduction to Yggs has left headphones to dust for me. Shit room or great room no matter.
Genelecs just scale so much more, despite it's cheap chip amps. I quit making sense in this.
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Doesn't have to be class-A, using class D for bass is perfectly fine. Mids and highs doesn't need too much juice, so that's where quality amplification is most needed.
Also the room is extremely important, especially under 1KHz where room acoustics determine everything. 10-30dB dips and peaks are common.
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I was reading about this dac at hifiduino and saw that you can upload your own filters. I have been super intrigued by the Schiit closed form filter and I was wondering if such a filter could be adapted to this DAC?
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Well, no - not really. Firstly, it's proprietary, secondly, it'd require quite a bit more of a CPU then the Soren has (computer, taps).
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We got some more taps recently. :)p6
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Yea? Cool! Admittedly, it's been a bit since I've kept up.
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Well, no - not really. Firstly, it's proprietary, secondly, it'd require quite a bit more of a CPU then the Soren has (computer, taps).
The proprietary part doesn't bother me because I wasn't going to use the exact same filter as Schiit. I would just use an independently derived filter closed form filter. I realize this would be a huge undertaking but I don't mind flexing my math muscles for this.
As far as computing power goes, is it possible to do the filtering offboard and then connect the filtered output to the DAC?