CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Soapbox => Topic started by: up late on November 09, 2013, 02:17:52 AM
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To be perfectly honest, I don't really care what Rin Choi thinks about this or that. Especially as I've never come across his talking about sound in the actual context of music. I find his discussions of all this stuff to be quite soul sapping, personally.
I'm rather indifferent toward the EX600 and EX1000, but I like the EX800ST. I also like the H3, but only when it's modded to remove the ridiculous bass Sony felt necessary to tune it to have.
The Ocharaku connection is definitely there, since it's the ex-employee responsible for the [awful] PFV-1. Really though the "Sony spirit" in this case is an antagonistic one, the one that haunted the EX700SL that I loved so much for some reason, and one that will definitely not be some peoples' cup of tea. I've been listening to their newest invention, the Donguri, which is designed to look like a pair of acorns you shove into your earholes. It even comes with a wooden acorn pendant crafted by Oak Village in their ongoing partnership with the tea house. I was especially moved when I discovered that the housings of the Donguri were made from zelkova, the same wood used on the cups of the Sony R10. Overall the Donguri has a much more natural type of sound, somewhat removed from the wholly unnatural Flat4 (or EX700SL). They're definitely carrying to torch of Sony's madder, more adventurous and inventive side these days. However their ethos is wholly different to my mind. More one of reverence for the world at large rather than a burning desire to dominate and conquer it.
I know it's en vogue and even fun to be cynical about stuff, but personally I think the portable market is in a much better state than it was a few years ago, especially compared to the full-sized headphone landscape. $100 today will get you a lot more in an in-ear monitor than it would have before, and there's just a much wider variety of different flavors and subtle variations that exist in the comparatively young in-ear market. For instance I've been trying to decide between several "neutral-ish" CIEMs like the L05QD, UERM, 4C, and NT6. After hearing them (save for the NT6), I was rather impressed by how competently tuned they were, especially compared to the world of headphones where you just don't see that sort of thing. If anything, the world of CIEMs and manufacturers pooling from the same sources reminds me more of the hobbyist speaker niche en miniature.
As for crossovers, it really depends. Sometimes they aren't executed particularly well. Other times a crossoverless design can work well, as in the case of Custom Art's dual driver model. It's all about implementation.
would have thought rin would fit right in here. music takes a back seat to measurements and technical performance from what i'm seeing.
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would have thought rin would fit right in here. music takes a back seat to measurements and technical performance from what i'm seeing.
Nope. Folk here try to correlate the objective and subjective and find where any discrepancies, if any, lay. This is not the I know everything based on a graph site and if you disagree with my measurements you are an audiophool subject to placebo. We welcome data and contributions from those like Rin and Nwavaguy, but do not tolerate their close minded, universal and dogmatic religious pontification of their narrow minded generalizations.
Many of the founders and contributors here do have scientific, engineering, recording backgrounds or education but also have or do continue to play actual musical instruments and have wide breadths of musical tastes or knowledge of music theory. Our posts, reviews are geared toward improving the listening experience of our music. Not to become some sort of internet E-thorities that internet strangers can stroke to appease any latent personal insecurities. We have a couple threads here dealing w/ music and recording recommendations.
We do not treat the ear and brain as placebo devices here. They are reliable tools when used in proper context as long as they are properly calibrated.
I like to think we try approach data and science here as a 'specific descriptive' phenomenon. Other sites that try to label themselves 'objective' in the wrong sense approach data and science as a 'universal prescriptive' phenomenon. The first approach is logically valid, the second is wholly fallacious. To me, a radical objectivist that says some $100 DAC is equal to any other based on a limited set of predefined metrics (often mislabeled 'electrical transparency') is the same as a radical subjectivist that says $2000 antivibration feet will improve the sound of your music 10x. Same people, different religions. Both sides have other sites they can frequent. This isn't it.
Head-Fi
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Ambassade_Perse_aupr%C3%A8s_de_Louis_XIV.jpg)
Hydrogen Audio
(http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/lenin-gosr.jpg)
Changstar
(http://www.sentryjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/foundingfathers1.jpg)
Headcase
(http://decentcommunity.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/suasage-fest.jpg)
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sorry but I gotta disagree with your "nope" there. ;) with the exception of a couple of dedicated threads, most of the posts i see here focus on the technicalities of a phone's performance and the sound it makes. they tend to lack musical context IMO. not criticising, just saying. :)
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Head-Fi
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Ambassade_Perse_aupr%C3%A8s_de_Louis_XIV.jpg)
Hydrogen Audio
(http://marxistleninist.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/lenin-gosr.jpg)
Changstar
(http://www.sentryjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/foundingfathers1.jpg)
Headcase
(http://decentcommunity.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/suasage-fest.jpg)
I don't care who you are, that's fucking funny right there.
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You make Headcase look so fun and inviting. What you don't see is the new guy who wanders into the hot tub and gets the bukkake treatment.
As for disagreeing that we're all about objective measurements, I have to disagree with said disagreement. Just because certain individuals don't pontificate with flowery language about "the soul of music" doesn't mean they're not concerned with how music sounds to them first and foremost. If you want to see walls of text about music, you can read the things I post in my diary on head-fi (which I'll probably end up duplicating here eventually when I'm not so lazy). If you're an ABS member or higher, you can hang around the shoutbox where we're always chatting about concerts we attended and how we felt listening to certain recordings on rigs at shows or in our homes.
This is very much a community, and the threads with measurements posted are only a small part of that: it's a set of resources for people to use. The main point of the gear discussion for a lot of folks here is to recommend stuff they enjoy. Whether that enjoyment stems from their ability to reproduce music pleasurable, because they're shiny objects, or both varies from person to person. Admittedly I like my fair share of shiny objects and pretty things. However I generally state this openly. Measurements are always posted along with subjective impressions with the understanding that we have different tastes and tolerances, and we don't use measurements to feel smug about "audiophools" who spend money on expensive gear. Sure, we might bitch about the state of the industry, but that always falls back to our not finding gear we personally like to listen to ourselves. Shit, I mean Marv just bought an Abyss. I've even posted that I like the Edition 10 I owned numerous times. However we also expect people to communicate why they like a piece of gear without doing that whole "we eat what we like" Apple Jacks commercial thing. Look at the recent threads from Ultrabike, who is testing out his measurement rig and becoming more active in that area. There are posts from people saying "hey, I think you measured these wrong because that's not what I hear."
Honestly, if all you did was just look at the measurement section of the site and not really get a sense of the community behind it, I could see making the mistake of assuming we get the chubs over low distortion figures. Like I said above, not every part of the site is open to the lowest level of membership. We have to get to know you first before we promote you. Sometimes people will sign up thinking we're crazy objectivists, and that they'd fit right in with that --- these folks usually end up being ignored. We drop context clues though, and if you can figure it out you usually end up promoted.
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most of the posts i see here focus on the technicalities of a phone's performance and the sound it makes. they tend to lack musical context IMO. not criticising, just saying. :)
No shit Sherlock. But you've completely missed the point / response to your Rin assertion.
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geez, keep your shirt on purrin. think i understood the post well enough but it doesn't change my observation - sorry.
@ muppet - wasn't saying that this forum is all about objective measurements - not interested in having that debate, so i have to disagree with you disagreeing with me. ;) had lurked here before joining. wasn't aware of your head fi diary thread - might check it out sometime. :)
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I'm going to disagree with you and insist upon the last word but I refuse to get into it. Let these smilies distract you from the fact that I posted nothing concrete to really back up my claims. ;) :) ;) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Of course, please take this with a grain of salt. IMHO, YMMV, TBD, WTFBBQ, +1 ;)
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geez, keep your shirt on purrin. think i understood the post well enough but it doesn't change my observation - sorry.
@ muppet - wasn't saying that this forum is all about objective measurements - not interested in having that debate, so i have to disagree with you disagreeing with me. ;) had lurked here before joining. wasn't aware of your head fi diary thread - might check it out sometime. :)
Not trying to change your observation as I don't disagree with you that this site is mostly about measurements. But just politely letting you know that tactics like shifting the topic (the issue Rin) for the sake of creating additional argument (just so you can be right on at least one count) is seriously frowned around here. It's not about who is right or wrong here. The use of smiley faces a la HF styles is also frowned upon here.
So let's just make it easy because you have already wasted Anax, Muppet, Zero, and my time: You can either delete your account and continue to lurk -or- play along (that is actually contribute something rather than play word games).
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never said that this site is mostly about measurements. my point was in reply to muppet's criticism of rin's approach - that his assessments of phones lack any musical context. all i was trying to say is that most of the posts i see here lack that as well coz they tend to focus on technical and measured performance. references to music and musicality are usually absent. no biggie - just something i've noticed that's all.
wasn't deliberately being provocative and am genuinely surprised by the hostile reaction. didn't try to shift my position either but i've obviously touched a nerve that I wasn't aware of. ban me if it makes you feel better - coz you got the power.
I
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never said that this site is mostly about measurements. my point was in reply to muppet's criticism of rin's approach - that his assessments of phones lack any musical context. all i was trying to say is that most of the posts i see here lack that as well coz they tend to focus on technical and measured performance. references to music and musicality are usually absent. no biggie - just something i've noticed that's all.
You win you are right.
ban me if it makes you feel better -
Done, DefQon, Mr. Spunkface.
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Purrin's end-game amp is the Objective 2, he clearly stated it in the Vali thread (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1160.0.html).
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Can someone tell me what the first picture means? Don't comprehend the reference to European culture.
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That's the illustrious absolute monarch Louis 14 of France and his Court. Looks like Turks or Persians are paying homage, giving him gifts, fawning over him, etc.
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I kind of have to agree with the part about not making references to music when talking gear. Just not appropriate to direct that stuff at this forum. As MF said, this community is a tight packed bunch of rational people who enjoy and share a variety of stuff and can most certainly discuss it in a more humane manner than at some "other places"...
So okay, the context is always music, but references are not directly made to it. I see that as my own personal shortcoming though, not understanding the language at hand... For instance, when people talk about specific problem areas of a headphone, they don't necessarily state instruments or recordings, but use other terms and specific frequency areas. That's when I usually whiff out something like this: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
... And try to comprehend.
I usually speak a completely different language but often talk about the same thing in the end when engaged in a discussion about gear related stuff.. Great thing here is that you can do so and possibly gain more understanding.
You (now banned up late?) also bring up the term "musicality", which to me is quite fascinating. I still see red when people dub it as "coloration" and that it's just some word people add to their plethora of adjectives describing a subjectively pleasing experience with a particular "toe-tapping" headphone. Granted that's exactly what happens at head-fi and because of that I don't wonder the term makes the other camp sick. I see it as something completely different though and hope it could gain some objective ground at some point...
Another fun thing here that I know through reading stuff people write elsewhere, other forums or just different threads here, is that everyone seems to disagree about a whole lot of subjects, but are decent enough not to every time call each one up on it, and thus get along or even more. Cool place, cool place. Though I really don't have much to contribute personally.
Shit my english is just bad.. Don't use it as much anymore, so it tends to tangle up into an inconsistent mess. Hope ya'll don't mind.
Also, great post zerodeefex. Have never been able to put that web-social phenomenon into text form, even non-sarcastically. Nice :) ;) :D :)) ;D :-*
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It's not about the argument, agreeing, disagreeing, etc. What this person did not understand is how this forum or community (which is very real once you get to know us) works. MF and Anax essentially tried to reach out to him, try to get him to understand what we are really about (with the audience not necessarily being him, but also others.)
Instead, this person takes it as a debate or argument on who is right on what points - and continues on this road. The smilies are obviously a not so veiled attempt to hide his contempt for us (an tactic often used on HF.) I mean why ever bother posting here? (We have a good idea who this person is - someone already banned from HF under several aliases.)
This is the second person I have actually banned myself. I don't like banning people, but the fact that this person wanted to continue this "argument" with me at HF via PM only confirms that I have made the right decision, especially since he asked me to ban him if it made me feel better (which it doesn't, it makes me feel bad, but I know banning him will keep this site more on topic and less noisy in the long run.)
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Hmm, I think I just brought up a few individual issues he might've missed. Definitely some of the stuff you miss if you don't get to know some of the people and the way of things... Might be missing some context as well; as you said you have a good idea who he is and how he's acted before. Strange agenda.
Just thinking, what's wrong with a nice hot tub bukkake treatment?
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About those references to music in our subjective opinions. Isn't it true that high fidelity gear can play anything you through at it very well, and the more hi-fi it is, the better it can do so?
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I'll bring up Tari's impressions of the Abyss as a good example. He liked many aspects of it, but said strings just didn't sound right to him. Anax felt the same way IIRC. This is really something you can only glean from listening to music using them, and it's really only a problem if that's the sort of music you listen to regularly. As Purrin said in the shoutbox when asked how he overcame this issue, perhaps with a bit of endearing snark: "I don't listen to string arrangements."
I'll also bring up the Stax SR-009. More than any other headphone out there, it has this ability to move out of the way and let the source material come through. Yet three pirates in recent memory have sold theirs, citing various issues such as a thin presentation and edginess that gets to be a little too fatiguing over time.
Really though, I tend to agree that a well tuned headphone will sound good with a wide variety of music. Unfortunately a lot of "high end gear" is tuned to be really treble happy, that sort of audiophile sparkly signature that makes details pop and everything seem artificially hyperreal. People mistake this for neutrality, and so you get these audiophile mantras like "only really good recordings should be used with your good gear" which translates into a lot of mid centric stuff that doesn't set off the problem areas of those headphones. Meets use the same few tracks over and over as a result, so you get all those audiophile cliches. Girls strumming guitars and small jazz ensembles are going to sound good on most stuff, after all. It's all the stuff audiophiles often say to avoid that, ironically, tests the capabilities of your gear more adequately.
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Meets use the same few tracks over and over as a result, so you get all those audiophile cliches. Girls strumming guitars and small jazz ensembles are going to sound good on most stuff, after all. It's all the stuff audiophiles often say to avoid that, ironically, tests the capabilities of your gear more adequately.
We have a phrase for that: "Music that sounds good on a walkie-talkie." Someday I'm going to do custom categories on JRiver and put all the audiophile stuff in a folder called, "Well-Recorded Music You Don't Want to Listen To."
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There's also a divergence in this community with regard to choosing "the One" reference headphone vs. having a selection for various moods. Purrin, LFF & Anax are pretty fixed on modding unique headphone designs to neutrality. Alternately MF & n3rdling have a whole stable of oddities. I'm somewhere in the middle. The 009 would be my end-game headphone were it not for a couple of weaknesses, though with some EQ it's just about there. But some music feels right with Ortho bass and the diffusivity of the 800 is alluring for live recordings.
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There's also a divergence in this community with regard to choosing "the One" reference headphone vs. having a selection for various moods. Purrin, LFF & Anax are pretty fixed on modding unique headphone designs to neutrality. Alternately MF & n3rdling have a whole stable of oddities. I'm somewhere in the middle. The 009 would be my end-game headphone were it not for a couple of weaknesses, though with some EQ it's just about there. But some music feels right with Ortho bass and the diffusivity of the 800 is alluring for live recordings.
This is a little off. Purrin, Anax and I are NOT fixated on modding headphones to supreme neutrality. We each have a nice collection of headphones and quite often, we rotate certain headphones among each other. All three of us own relatively neutral headphones but we also have some bright ones and some dark ones in there. We enjoy different flavors at different times. The V-Moda M80 is not a neutral headphone, yet Purrin and I have given it good marks and have recommended it several times.
What I feel separated us as a general community is our intolerance for "crap" and "BS". Purrin mentioned this in another post, but that's essentially how Changstar started. We heard SOOO much positive hype regarding the LCD's and I think Purrin, Anax and I were the only ones at the time going.... p:8 facepalm . We all commented and gave our honest opinions and then Purrin showed me and explained to me how the measurements had been "tweaked" to give it a better appearance of not sucking so much. The measurements provided by Audeze simple didn't correlate with what the three of us were hearing. We all thought....wouldn't it be nice if there was a place that didn't hype BS, didn't lie and didn't provide a new "The One" FOTM every single time someone became a sponsor....hmmm.... :)p10
Even better, wouldn't it be awesome if we could use both subjective and objective impressions and mention our thoughts freely without fearing being censored by the great dictator and his SS minions.....hmmmm..... :)p10
LONG LIVE CHANGSTAR! :)p2
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This is a little off. Purrin, Anax and I are NOT fixated on modding headphones to supreme neutrality. We each have a nice collection of headphones and quite often, we rotate certain headphones among each other. All three of us own relatively neutral headphones but we also have some bright ones and some dark ones in there. We enjoy different flavors at different times. The V-Moda M80 is not a neutral headphone, yet Purrin and I have given it good marks and have recommended it several times.
An oversimplification and false dichotomy on my part, then. Perhaps the point was to bring up the common pirate practice of working towards perfecting a neutral headphone, one that would generally suit any sort of music. (To correct and expand on my previous comment:) These projects function alongside different "flavored" headphones. This is counter to the Head-Fi practice of picking flavored headphones and insisting that they become the new model of neutrality, made all the more amusing by the plurality of these idolized flavors and the clamor of their champions.
It's also worth noting that the majority of changstar members are versed in transposing their expectation of headphone performance to fit musical context. Bottom line is that the criticism posed by the OP is bullshit.
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There are three reasons why I don't explicitly refer to music or recordings in my subjective impressions:
- The point about me having a preference for headphones within certain bounds of normalcy (if not neutrality) is a valid. I tend to gravitate toward gear which can get me by most recordings without either the pain of treble spikes or the boredom of being too forgiving. I eschew the technique used by some HF reviewers to rate gear based on a list of recordings with a W/L tally. Take this post on the Vali for example: http://www.head-fi.org/t/685162/new-vali-schiit-amp/540#post_9930077 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/685162/new-vali-schiit-amp/540#post_9930077). Absolutely nothing wrong with it, but I just don't think that way. I feel that this method is excessive since one only needs to state that the Vali can sound a bit softer and slower on the bass (which that person's impressions with various tracks would seem to suggest.) It comes down to me not believing that a transducer should be the element that enhances certain recordings (through excessive colouration) at the expense of others (marginal recordings which react badly to a specific transducers' colour). Strat put it best: "When I was beginning to get into headphones, I thought the HD600s sounded nice but a little boring. It was only when I began to understand that the magic has to come from the music itself (when well recorded and mixed) and is not something that a coloured headphone should add, I began to appreciate them. I have kept them in high regard since then."
- My subjective impressions are not based on listening to test tones. They are based on listening to a selection of recordings, some excellently mastered, others of marginal quality. This selection of tracks does slowly change over time, but much of it stays constant. So inherently, music is part of the process, although it's never explicitly mentioned. I've indicated the tracks I've used at various times, in the DAC comparison worksheet, and also in the recordings section of this website. The point is that gear that renders snares painfully with one decent recording will probably do the same with another. Gear that makes baritone voices sound thin will probably also make the body of a cello sound thin. It's really not that hard for folks familiar with the Carnegie Chart: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm)
- While music is obviously the end part of the equation, there is a desire on my part to separate the gear from the music. There are three times I can clearly remember being very moved by music (and in all those incidents - it had absolutely nothing to do with the gear): Midori playing a Dvorak piece - on the stock radio in my car; Perlman and Yoyo - in a youtube video from my laptop speakers; and Taylor Swift Best Day on my current speaker rig. The gear is simply the vehicle for the transmission of music. I prefer to comment on the technicalities of such gear rather than how it affects the soul of specific recordings. Because the next day, I may feel much differently about the "soul" of the same recordings.
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P.S.
As far as people being made an example of, being forced to publicly walk the plank , etc., do take the pirate theme seriously. Read up on pirates of yore, how they governed themselves, how they ran things on a ship. Pirates back then were not a bunch of psychopaths who believed in creating chaos of the sake of it, or that the mightiest and meanest ruled over all. Running forums or ships require a certain level of discipline. Idiotic sailors who threaten smooth sealing can be expected to receive a public flogging or thrown overboard. Make no mistake, this is not HF where anyone is free to blurt out whatever as long as it's followed by a smiley face.
That being said, the vast majority of people who have signed up and posted have never been a problem. I mean you have to really try to be dumb. And "what do you guys think about $75 headphone X" is NOT a dumb question.
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P.S.
As far as people being made an example of, being forced to publicly walk the plank , etc., do take the pirate theme seriously. Read up on pirates of yore, how they governed themselves, how they ran things on a ship. Pirates back then were not a bunch of psychopaths who believed in creating chaos of the sake of it, or that the mightiest and meanest ruled over all. Running forums or ships require a certain level of discipline. Idiotic sailors who threaten smooth sealing can be expected to receive a public flogging or thrown overboard. Make no mistake, this is not HF where anyone is free to blurt out whatever as long as it's followed by a smiley face.
That being said, the vast majority of people who have signed up and posted have never been a problem. I mean you have to really try to be dumb.
Indeed.
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Well said Purrin. It was always very clear to me that the end goal of this forum is musical enjoyment, not measurements and technical data. I think that leaving out musical reference allows everyone to be on the same page. I am not familiar with most of the tracks that I see people use for testing, therefore hearing what someone thinks about gear with a specific piece of music is not that important to me. As you say, leaving out your impressions of different pieces of music makes your reviews more concise vs the detailed description of how you hear 15 tracks. If you write that this headphone is bass heavy or this DAC has harsh treble I already know what you mean.
This place is what you want it to be. I am sure many people come here for the measurements. However there are a multitude of threads here dedicated to music and recordings, many of which have inspired albums in my collection. I have seen a number of objectivists/boat rockers come and go in the time I have been here. Most of them get the message that this is not what CS is about without the issure having to go any further. On the rare occasion that they can't...
walk the plank
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Meets use the same few tracks over and over as a result, so you get all those audiophile cliches. Girls strumming guitars and small jazz ensembles are going to sound good on most stuff, after all. It's all the stuff audiophiles often say to avoid that, ironically, tests the capabilities of your gear more adequately.
We have a phrase for that: "Music that sounds good on a walkie-talkie." Someday I'm going to do custom categories on JRiver and put all the audiophile stuff in a folder called, "Well-Recorded Music You Don't Want to Listen To."
Can I nominate "James Newton Howard & Friends" for that folder? :)p13
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Marv hit the nail on the head with those 3 bullet points. Very similar to how I try think and approach things like this. Granted, this community has helped steer me more in that direction, for which I am very appreciative.