CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Vinyl Nutjob World => Topic started by: OJneg on August 16, 2015, 05:33:33 PM
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Our goal is to find awesome music on wax and share it with our friends.
Share any knowledge and experience you guys have in this thread
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heard thru the grapevine that needle drops onto dsd are better as you don't have to apply a filter as your doing the conversion, but I never tried it myself ....
also great thread.
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Step one: wait for Mike Moffat to make an A-D box?
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Our goal is to find awesome music on wax and share it with our friends.
Share any knowledge and experience you guys have in this thread
First of all, be prepared to spend some money. At the very least, you're going to need a KAB EV-1. A $20 record brush and some cleaning fluid is not going to cut it. A VPI 16.5, Okki Nokki, Nitty Gritty, Moth, etc would be even better. Good fluid is also required, like Audio Intelligent. A clean record is a must for a good needle drop.
Second, obviously make sure your table, arm, and cart are dialed in. A restored vintage direct drive paired with a modern arm and cart can provide great results because those tables had such low speed variance and W&F. If you're going that route, you'll want to invest in a good isolation platform.
If you're using a belt drive, it's worth it to invest in a motor controller like the Phoenix Falcon and Roadrunner.
The Phono pre is very important. Doesn't need to cost a fortune, but a Schiit Mani isn't going to cut it, sorry Schiit. I like the Musical Surroundings Phono pres because they are so adaptable in terms of loading and gain options and sound great, but there are other good choices as well.
The ADC cannot be a consumer grade soundcard like a Soundblaster or Asus Xonar. They simply aren't good enough. You need something designed for professionals - RME, Motu, Lynx, etc, not for playing video games.
Finally, no freeware recording software like Audacity. For whatever reason, every drop I've heard done using Audacity has sounded lousy. iZotope is a good option, and don't cheat by using any automatic click repair. Listen to your rip in real time, and take out the clicks and pops as you find them.
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A few of us find the wood glue method quite effective. I'll upload some rips from my phono rig that audiophiles with small penises would laugh at.
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I've got a Mini-Pro. Not cheap, but makes what is by far the least enjoyable aspect of vinyl ownership a little bit less annoying. The ultrasonic cleaners are cool, but the prices are ridiculous.
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Of the PVA based glues I've tried, Titebond II has worked best for cleaning.
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A few of us find the wood glue method quite effective. I'll upload some rips from my phono rig that audiophiles with small penises would laugh at.
I'm definitely not laughing. ;)
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A few of us find the wood glue method quite effective. I'll upload some rips from my phono rig that audiophiles with small penises would laugh at.
Of the PVA based glues I've tried, Titebond II has worked best for cleaning.
Wood glue on vinyl?
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It's new to me too. I didn't know about the wood glue technique (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gyvipBs6Vs). Very clever. Seems best to avoid being hasty (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iGq2NHilCI0#t=359), however.
I have an old VPI vacuum system, and firmly believe in wet-scrub-vac for vinyl. However, given today's prices, I'd probably cobble together a vac system out of a cheap wet-vac (comes with brush!) (http://www.amazon.com/Vacmaster-VP205-Portable-Vacuum-gallon/dp/B002I7J7LQ) and some thick felt (http://www.amazon.com/Waxman-4720095N-Self-Stick-Blanket-Oatmeal/dp/B0016L0M2I)(or maybe thin (http://www.michaels.com/creatology-peel-and-stick-stiff-felt/10331812.html)). For fluid, you can't go wrong concocting something out of Lestoil (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0036B89US) cut with water or iso.
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I used to use soap and water. Then I moved on to a more standard mix of IPA and water with a drop of detergent in it, as recommended by some more serious digitisers. I use the same stuff for cleaning my glasses!
My original (well, not first, but the final step in internal) soundcard was an RME. I was deeply fond of it, as it introduced me to the computer as hifi, but a decade later, something has aged and it makes some odd sounds sometimes (same applies to me). I moved external with an Echo Audiofire 2.
I loved Cool Edit Pro software. Absolutely simple and straightforward to use, but also powerful. Adobe turned it into a monstrosity, and I moved to Linux anyway. CEP would work with Wine at a pinch, but not always reliably. That left me with not much to choose from other than Audacity. "Intuitive" could be defined as "what any individual is used to." CEP was always "intuitive" to me; Audacity not so much so.
But, in the end, vinyl ripping is a labour of love, and, unless the LPs are in superb condition, labour really is the word. A house without a turntable is not a home... but a large part of my reason for having gone exclusively digital is that, from the second time I remove an LP from its sleeve, it is no longer perfect and only gets worse. Somehow, I find some of the imperfections of vinyl ok when I am listening to vinyl, but less so when I am listening to the digital file*, so my preferred method of digitising, these days, is to benefit from the work of someone who has a good copy and is a genius at transforming it --- or just buy a digital source. Yes, I've heard CD "versions" that don't even sound like the same album, but I seem to be very lucky in the ones that I have.
*The other side of that coin is that I have become so used to some imperfections that they become part of the experience of listening to that record and it comes as a shock not to hear them!
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The ultrasonic cleaners are cool, but the prices are ridiculous.
The DIY route (lots of good stuff in this thread):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner-99.html#post4226898
And this dude, who I discovered from the thread, is legit:
http://vibratollc.com/new-products.html
https://www.tindie.com/stores/VibratoLLC/
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As far as cleaners are concerned, until I can afford an Audio Desk Systeme, I can get by nicely with a Spin-Clean, TYVM.
The Hilo's A/D conversion capabilities are what attracted me to it in the first place. I get what I consider to be very nice results with my mid-fi vinyl rig (Rega RP3/Sumiko Blackbird/Whest Two) into the Hilo. I use Pure Vinyl for ripping, outputting 192/24 AIFF, and use Audacity for cleanup and inserting track information for subsequent editing in iTunes. I spent the money for iZotope Rx3, but have never invested the time to master its confusing UI.
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I quickly decided that ripping vinyl was too time consuming and too expensive to work for me.
I didn't get BAD results, per se. But, just knowing that I could do better always haunted me.
On that note, I've got a Project USB V: http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=phonoboxusbv
If anyone is interested in getting into ripping, I'd be willing to do a straight trade of this for something like the Schiit Mani.
As for record cleaning, I've got the Spin Clean. It gets the job done well enough for general listening purposes.
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I used to use the phono stage built into the integrated amp (in those days, they all had one) and, not surprisingly, the digitised result sounded pretty much like playing the record.
More recently, I've used a Musical FIdelity VLPS, but no, the results were not as satisfying. That's another reason for me not to be very keen on doing the job. There is no point, for me, in investing in a better phono amp: it wouldn't get used enough.
One thing that surprised me, last time I was messing around with this stuff, is that Audacity's software RIAA correction is surprisingly good.
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Minor issue, need to recable as it keeps cutting out and doing weird stuff. Will have to wait for parts
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Ahhhhhh this is my thread :P My vinyl rig is essentially dedicated to doing needledrops and I've done well over 500 records over the last few years.
I record "flat" using a Seta Model L phono, apply software RIAA in Pure Vinyl (I A/Bd vs all the software RIAA filters I could find and Pure Vinyl was best) and then do everything else in Izotope RX4. I feel the software RIAA is superior to all but the very best analog implementations. It is clearly superior (imaging, attack/decay etc..) to the built in hardware RIAA on the Seta phono which very good.
You guys discussed cleaning. Yes, at minimum vacuum clean (VPI 16, Okki Nokki etc..) for professional results. Ultrasonic is best but costs $$$$ and you still need a vacuum rinse with distilled water for the ultimate best result. I'm saving my pennies for a KL or maybe VPI will step in with a cheaper alternative soon. (I know Harry has been designing a machine for a while now)
I would strongly urge the use of outboard ADC. PC soundcards (even the good ones) are noisy noisy noisy and the ADC is essentially an afterthought both on the board and in the driver... I started with a Claro Halo and last year moved to a TASCAM-DA3000. It's crazy how much cleaner the recording looks once you open it up. I would even use something basic like a TASCAM-DR05 before going back to a PC soundcard.
With regards to post processing, don't be afraid to "fix" things that are obviously off. There are LOTS of pressings that have baked in 60Hz hum, obvious channel imbalance due to the pressing or other just plain "wrong" stuff going on that can be fixed almost transparently in the digital domain.
For declick iZotope RX4 is best, espcially for noisy vinyl. I use the "Vinyl" preset but reduce the strength to 2.0 for a noisy record and 0.5 (minimum) for a clean one. The default of 5 is way too much and will munch on your transients which is no bueno. (note that 2.0 will also munch on some transients but the overall reduction is worth it)
ClickRepair is also very good; use strength 15 or less, wavelet with both Pitch Protection and Reverse enabled
Order of post processing is:
Click Removal
Anything other "re-mastering" you might want to do like EQ, channel balance, noise removal
Normalization (use -0.03dB but personally I actually gain it up higher (often to +1 or even +2dBfs) and then use the declip function to pull down/re-interpolate the small amount of samples (usually 100 or less) that go over)
Source Rate Convert (my final output is usually 24/96 since that's as much as the POS DAC in my DJ controller can handle)
Dither
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Ahhhhhh this is my thread :P My vinyl rig is essentially dedicated to doing needledrops and I've done well over 500 records over the last few years.
I record "flat" using a Seta Model L phono, apply software RIAA in Pure Vinyl (I A/Bd vs all the software RIAA filters I could find and Pure Vinyl was best) and then do everything else in Izotope RX4. I feel the software RIAA is superior to all but the very best analog implementations. It is clearly superior (imaging, attack/decay etc..) to the built in hardware RIAA on the Seta phono which very good.
You guys discussed cleaning. Yes, at minimum vacuum clean (VPI 16, Okki Nokki etc..) for professional results. Ultrasonic is best but costs $$$$ and you still need a vacuum rinse with distilled water for the ultimate best result. I'm saving my pennies for a KL or maybe VPI will step in with a cheaper alternative soon. (I know Harry has been designing a machine for a while now)
I would strongly urge the use of outboard ADC. PC soundcards (even the good ones) are noisy noisy noisy and the ADC is essentially an afterthought both on the board and in the driver... I started with a Claro Halo and last year moved to a TASCAM-DA3000. It's crazy how much cleaner the recording looks once you open it up. I would even use something basic like a TASCAM-DR05 before going back to a PC soundcard.
With regards to post processing, don't be afraid to "fix" things that are obviously off. There are LOTS of pressings that have baked in 60Hz hum, obvious channel imbalance due to the pressing or other just plain "wrong" stuff going on that can be fixed almost transparently in the digital domain.
For declick iZotope RX4 is best, espcially for noisy vinyl. I use the "Vinyl" preset but reduce the strength to 2.0 for a noisy record and 0.5 (minimum) for a clean one. The default of 5 is way too much and will munch on your transients which is no bueno. (note that 2.0 will also munch on some transients but the overall reduction is worth it)
ClickRepair is also very good; use strength 15 or less, wavelet with both Pitch Protection and Reverse enabled
Order of post processing is:
Click Removal
Anything other "re-mastering" you might want to do like EQ, channel balance, noise removal
Normalization (use -0.03dB but personally I actually gain it up higher (often to +1 or even +2dBfs) and then use the declip function to pull down/re-interpolate the small amount of samples (usually 100 or less) that go over)
Source Rate Convert (my final output is usually 24/96 since that's as much as the POS DAC in my DJ controller can handle)
Dither
Fantastic. I'm just going to ship you all my vinyl and let you do your thing :P
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Ultrabike this one is for you :)
Here is a sample needledrop from a great sounding mid 70s salsa album:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4sPIP8WLCg-OUFSVzNSek1sWTA/view?usp=sharing
This drop has no post processing other then normalization. I like using the trumpet solo near the end to evaluate gear because it's a screaming trumpet right in your face but the recording is so clean that if something is off it's not a gear issue.
Here is the same song from iTunes. I feel it's a real shame that people are asking money for stuff like this:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/raffy-diaz-y-su-orquesta/id295866641
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Fantastic. I'm just going to ship you all my vinyl and let you do your thing :P
Me too. the best way to digitise is to to find somebody else --- somebody who is dedicated to the point of obsession, and loves doing it. Of course, the choice of gear is entirely up to them.
Chris... Keep up the good work!
:)p4 :)p7 :)p4
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One of my DJ buddies asked me how I normalize my needledrops so I thought I would put my answer here as well since it seems relevant to the discussion. :)
(BTW if a pro mastering engineer type (does Bob Katz read changstar?) happens to pass through and has comments or better ideas I would love to hear them)
Anyhow, conventional wisdom would simply have you normalize to 0 (or -0.03) dbFS and be done with it however you will find that with needledrops you are invariably going to end up with some big ass transients few of which will be much larger then anything in the recording. If you are playing your drops back to back in a playlist (or set) vs modern masters they are often several dB quieter because of this. In extreme cases they can be as much as 6dB RMS lower or even more.
To offset this without smashing the dynamic range what I do is gain everything up just past the point where the biggest transients clip. The goal is to get maybe 100-200 or so overs in each channel (in iZotope RX4 use alt-D to bring up the loudness info/over calculations window) which usually ends up being somewhere between +0.75 and +3dBfs on the louder of the two channels. If you end up in the thousands or a single clipped interval ends up being >100 samples or so you need to dial it back. It will probably take you a few tries to dial in a number you are comfortable with.
Once you are happy and have the waveform just barely clipping you use the "Declip" function in RX4 set at -0.1dBFS threshold to re-interpolate the overs down to 0dBFS. Remember you are interpolating a few hundred samples which at 96K sample rate is a few milliseconds total over the entire song. Nobody is going to hear that and you have gained typically 1-3dB RMS loudness in exchange.
Good deal IMO. :)
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On the subject of cleaning, has anyone ever tried those zerostat gun thingies? I'm actually kinda interested in that for the labs if it works.
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One of my DJ buddies asked me how I normalize my needledrops so I thought I would put my answer here as well since it seems relevant to the discussion. :)
(BTW if a pro mastering engineer type (does Bob Katz read changstar?) happens to pass through and has comments or better ideas I would love to hear them)
Anyhow, conventional wisdom would simply have you normalize to 0 (or -0.03) dbFS and be done with it however you will find that with needledrops you are invariably going to end up with some big ass transients few of which will be much larger then anything in the recording. If you are playing your drops back to back in a playlist (or set) vs modern masters they are often several dB quieter because of this. In extreme cases they can be as much as 6dB RMS lower or even more.
To offset this without smashing the dynamic range what I do is gain everything up just past the point where the biggest transients clip. The goal is to get maybe 100-200 or so overs in each channel (in iZotope RX4 use alt-D to bring up the loudness info/over calculations window) which usually ends up being somewhere between +0.75 and +3dBfs on the louder of the two channels. If you end up in the thousands or a single clipped interval ends up being >100 samples or so you need to dial it back. It will probably take you a few tries to dial in a number you are comfortable with.
Once you are happy and have the waveform just barely clipping you use the "Declip" function in RX4 set at -0.1dBFS threshold to re-interpolate the overs down to 0dBFS. Remember you are interpolating a few hundred samples which at 96K sample rate is a few milliseconds total over the entire song. Nobody is going to hear that and you have gained typically 1-3dB RMS loudness in exchange.
Good deal IMO. :)
I say set Line-In level appropriate and don't normalize. This is why Jesus gave us pots to control playback. I like to do as little manipulation on the digital side as possible.
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As long as you don't clip the input to the ADC it's all good. :)
BTW speaking of ADC input; I go for program peaks around -6dBFS. At -6dBFS you are using 23/24 bits of ADC resolution and your program material has a dynamic range waaaaay under that.
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Round 1 of rip testing:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2808.0.html#new
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The ADC cannot be a consumer grade soundcard like a Soundblaster or Asus Xonar. They simply aren't good enough. You need something designed for professionals - RME, Motu, Lynx, etc, not for playing video games.
Finally, no freeware recording software like Audacity. For whatever reason, every drop I've heard done using Audacity has sounded lousy. iZotope is a good option, and don't cheat by using any automatic click repair. Listen to your rip in real time, and take out the clicks and pops as you find them.
I have an old Firewire 410 interface and do not want to spend money on fancy software to try making a rip. I do have access to Mac or PC though; are there other decent freeware alternatives? If nothing free is available do you have some commercial recommendations?
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I use Reaper to great success. Going to be a bit harder to get set up and learn as it's a full-blown DAW though. Much better than Audacity IME. I find Ardour to work well on Linux as well.
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I have an old Firewire 410 interface and do not want to spend money on fancy software to try making a rip. I do have access to Mac or PC though; are there other decent freeware alternatives? If nothing free is available do you have some commercial recommendations?
Sound Forge Audio Studio is a good option on Windows. Costs about $20 on Amazon.
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Does Audacity still have the issue where it can't properly record 24 bit in Windows unless you personally compile it with ASIO/WASAPI support?
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I think so. Might be part of the reason it sounds off
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What ADCs are you guys using? I'm looking to upgrade from my 2i2, it's a PoS.
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I use a TASCAM DA-3000 which I think is the best under 1K ADC on the market these days. I'll upload a comparison for you since I just got a 2i2 the other day to do measurements with. (TASCAM is SD/CF based doesn't do USB)
Fremer did an ADC shootout a while back with samples: (unfortunately no TASCAM)
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-digital-converter-shootout-which-sounds-best
Follow up with the big reveal is here:
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/analog-digital-converter-files-identified-converters-profiled
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Very interesting links. I'm honestly trying to hold out for Mike to make a GAIN Lite or something along those lines, but that's really a long-shot.
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On the subject of cleaning, has anyone ever tried those zerostat gun thingies? I'm actually kinda interested in that for the labs if it works.
I had one when the first came out in the 1970s, and when I went back to vinyl I bought another one. I have no idea whether it makes an audible difference, but it's been part of my ritual for 40 years ...
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Very interesting links. I'm honestly trying to hold out for Mike to make a GAIN Lite or something along those lines, but that's really a long-shot.
Yes, I would LOVE it if Schiit went after the pro and home recording market with an ADC product. I think that segment is really ripe for a high value for money entry.
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Yes, I would LOVE it if Schiit went after the pro and home recording market with an ADC product. I think that segment is really ripe for a high value for money entry.
I think it would be smart for Schiit to focus on vinyl ripping home users with an ADC, maybe even do a combo with a Phono preamp like the PS Audio, but you know, good. Though I understand that they are generally philosophically opposed to all-in-one devices. Something like a bargain Ayre QA-9 would be great.
The pros are going to want loads of channels, XLR/TRS combo jacks, mic preamps etc, and that really doesn't serve the home market very well.