CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on March 07, 2013, 05:22:23 AM
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Subjective Impressions - in order of effect:
- Much airier and open than stock fuzz pads. I really like this. Significant difference from stock.
- Stronger spot in the lower/mid bass. Gives bass some heft, a la Audeze.
- Upper mids and lower treble seem more even.
- Overall not a huge change since the headphone is still identifiable as the HE500. I actually liked the pads enough that I have not put the stock fuzz pads on.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=848.0;attach=3006;image)
Blue = original fuzz pads
Green = Jerg pads
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CSDs
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Nice work Jerg!
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Thanks for the measurements!
Glad to see that my impressions of the treble (sibilants being much more smoothed out, upper end overall more even-sounding) with jergpads vs velours are reflected readily by the CSDs.
The changes in the midrange are interesting; the slight dip could attribute to a more open sound? I prefer the jergpad midrange much much more than velours subjectively, as it sounds less thin to my ears. That could be a function of lower~mid midrange decay.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
-
Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
-
Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
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Fuck these scissors suck! It's not a smooth snip, the blades seem to be either bent or layers of glue must be rubbing causing the motion to be jerky
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
Before you do anything, let me try to finish up and confirm my claim. Still trying to hack away with crummy scissors
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
Before you do anything, let me try to finish up and confirm my claim. Still trying to hack away with crummy scissors
All I edited was a few words in the list of tools needed, to clarify that the double-sided tape needs to be the thin variety.
By the way, what I mean about that variety is shown in pics 20~21.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
Before you do anything, let me try to finish up and confirm my claim. Still trying to hack away with crummy scissors
All I edited was a few words in the list of tools needed, to clarify that the double-sided tape needs to be the thin variety.
By the way, what I mean about that variety is shown in pics 20~21.
Ah I see. My 3M tape is rubbery and much thicker than yours. Also, it's grey, not transparent.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
Before you do anything, let me try to finish up and confirm my claim. Still trying to hack away with crummy scissors
All I edited was a few words in the list of tools needed, to clarify that the double-sided tape needs to be the thin variety.
By the way, what I mean about that variety is shown in pics 20~21.
Ah I see. My 3M tape is rubbery and much thicker than yours. Also, it's grey, not transparent.
Are you two going for world record for most quotes stacked within each other?
I want in.
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Wow, thanks for sharing this. Also thanks for making them Jerg. I just need to find myself some time to make myself some Jergpads with my spare pleather pads. Hmmm, any new innovations to raise the Jergpads 2K~ area to the Velour levels? But with that said, I need to make myself some Jergpads tonight!
The pads purrin measured are version 1 of the mod.
The version 2 actually has 2 additional components to the procedure, 1 to really improve the sub-bass extension, the other to completely remove the "cupped" feeling of the pleather material - that could be what you are looking for.
I think I might try up to version 2. For the stacks of tape, would it be better to use a 3M double sided sticky tape thing and cover it with one layer of electrical tape? I have some lying around that I need to use
Er the tape stacks you just stack layers of tape, there is no need of double-sided tape at all. The only parts where double-sided tape comes in are III and IV.
I want to use it because one layer of the sticky tape can act as 4 electrical tapes stacked (estimating)?
Wait are the 3M tapes thick? The dollar store double-sided tape I used in the mod are incredibly thin, they are basically just films with adhesive on both sides.
Moderately thick* I would say. I would say that 3-4 layers of electrical tape equals to one layer of the stick tape
EDIT*: thick not thin. currently cutting away!
Huh, I have to edit the guide then. I thought they would be thin, like packing tape thin.
Before you do anything, let me try to finish up and confirm my claim. Still trying to hack away with crummy scissors
All I edited was a few words in the list of tools needed, to clarify that the double-sided tape needs to be the thin variety.
By the way, what I mean about that variety is shown in pics 20~21.
Ah I see. My 3M tape is rubbery and much thicker than yours. Also, it's grey, not transparent.
Are you two going for world record for most quotes stacked within each other?
I want in.
Consider yourself invited
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On a more serious note, I finished the mod. Jerg, cheers to you. My velours are officially retired... I'll get some pics in asap
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Seriously though, what phones sound good w/ velours? The only ones I can think of are Senns like the 558/598. I can't think of a phone I've ever kept velour pads on.
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At the time when I had the HE-400, velours sounded better than the pleathers.
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HD-25ii sounds good with velours imo?
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HE-400 definitely sounds better with stock velours compared to pleathers. Judging on the quick summary of the jergpads though, it seems as though hifiman had serious omission of not damping the inside of the pleathers.
With the HE-500's dip in the upper mids being filled out so much, I wonder how these would look like with HE-400 graphs.
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Too lazy to post pics here, instead here's the link to my post w/ pics on HF
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646812/hifiman-he500-he400-jergpad-mod-v2-0-new-revised-feb-28-2013/435#post_9234864
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Holy shit Jerg. The improvement in the bass is VERY noticeable. Bass has more impact lower down, midbass seems to be increased a bit as well, I would say the mids are on the same level as velour, maybe a tiny bit below in presence, definitely a little brighter and more energetic.
Well worth the snipping and taping! I really like this mod!
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Too lazy to post pics here, instead here's the link to my post w/ pics on HF
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646812/hifiman-he500-he400-jergpad-mod-v2-0-new-revised-feb-28-2013/435#post_9234864
My main critique would be that while your mid~low bass will be improved, your sub-bass is butchered via your taping scheme on the underside.
Ideally you'd want a little bit of vent (in my write-up I only tape-stack vented 1/4 of the underside) to open up the sound and give a little distance to bump up the low bass, and have the rest of the underside surface have complete adhesion bonding with the headphone cup to compensate and linearize the sub-bass response. I know because I tried something similar to what you did, just have tape stacks all around, and bass below 35 Hz becomes non-existent. With the sub-bass mod, it goes down solid until about 20 Hz or so before losing some steam.
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Too lazy to post pics here, instead here's the link to my post w/ pics on HF
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646812/hifiman-he500-he400-jergpad-mod-v2-0-new-revised-feb-28-2013/435#post_9234864
My main critique would be that while your mid~low bass will be improved, your sub-bass is butchered via your taping scheme on the underside.
Ideally you'd want a little bit of vent (in my write-up I only tape-stack vented 1/4 of the underside) to open up the sound and give a little distance to bump up the low bass, and have the rest of the underside surface have complete adhesion bonding with the headphone cup to compensate and linearize the sub-bass response. I know because I tried something similar to what you did, just have tape stacks all around, and bass below 35 Hz becomes non-existent. With the sub-bass mod, it goes down solid until about 20 Hz or so before losing some steam.
Forgot to mention that after posting the pictures, I added more tape sections. Again, more bass. Also, I pressed the tape down a bit more to reduce the amount of venting.
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Too lazy to post pics here, instead here's the link to my post w/ pics on HF
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646812/hifiman-he500-he400-jergpad-mod-v2-0-new-revised-feb-28-2013/435#post_9234864
My main critique would be that while your mid~low bass will be improved, your sub-bass is butchered via your taping scheme on the underside.
Ideally you'd want a little bit of vent (in my write-up I only tape-stack vented 1/4 of the underside) to open up the sound and give a little distance to bump up the low bass, and have the rest of the underside surface have complete adhesion bonding with the headphone cup to compensate and linearize the sub-bass response. I know because I tried something similar to what you did, just have tape stacks all around, and bass below 35 Hz becomes non-existent. With the sub-bass mod, it goes down solid until about 20 Hz or so before losing some steam.
Forgot to mention that after posting the pictures, I added more tape sections. Again, more bass. Also, I pressed the tape down a bit more to reduce the amount of venting.
Ah!
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I am seriously impressed Jerg. When I first saw your early mods (regrill and early Jergpads), I was mildly skeptical (try not to take offense). Now after trying it first hand, I apologize for doubting your efforts. I guess Purrin's measurements was the tipping point for me to actually try it with an open mind. Brilliant!
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LOL @ quote stacking. You guys are nuts. p:8
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I am seriously impressed Jerg. When I first saw your early mods (regrill and early Jergpads), I was mildly skeptical (try not to take offense). Now after trying it first hand, I apologize for doubting your efforts. I guess Purrin's measurements was the tipping point for me to actually try it with an open mind. Brilliant!
Thanks bro. As for the regrilling mod, I never mentioned but a quick and dirty way to get 80% of the effect of the mod is just to rip the fabric off the back of the stock grills. Cutting out new steel mesh to replace the grills is really quite optional in terms of sonic improvement.
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Thanks bro. As for the regrilling mod, I never mentioned but a quick and dirty way to get 80% of the effect of the mod is just to rip the fabric off the back of the stock grills. Cutting out new steel mesh to replace the grills is really quite optional in terms of sonic improvement.
Hmm, not that I doubt you or anything, but I feel quite uneasy about exposing the drivers further. I have a lot of dust in my room mostly due to carpets and because I spend most of my time on the desk moving around (even though I try to air it out at times).
However, I did try to listen to the 500s without the grills on and grill on and TBH it was difficult to hear a difference. I might be guessing but maybe a tiny bit more transparent and mildly more forward mids?
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Thanks bro. As for the regrilling mod, I never mentioned but a quick and dirty way to get 80% of the effect of the mod is just to rip the fabric off the back of the stock grills. Cutting out new steel mesh to replace the grills is really quite optional in terms of sonic improvement.
Hmm, not that I doubt you or anything, but I feel quite uneasy about exposing the drivers further. I have a lot of dust in my room mostly due to carpets and because I spend most of my time on the desk moving around (even though I try to air it out at times).
However, I did try to listen to the 500s without the grills on and grill on and TBH it was difficult to hear a difference. I might be guessing but maybe a tiny bit more transparent and mildly more forward mids?
Not quite. That was actually a HE5LE mod that Dr. Fang himself proposed 3 years ago.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/491831/a-simple-way-of-adding-airiness-to-hifiman-he-5le-remove-grill-cloth
And the HE5LE reviewer over 6moons audio explained the effect fairly eloquently:
"The explanation I leave to the engineers. The results certainly take no guess work. While cosmetics do take a hit—you'll see exactly what the final photo shows which is now barely obscured by the open honeycomb pattern—those fine decay trails and reverberations that were previously obscured (killed by damping as it were) are now released. This has nothing whatsoever to do with becoming sizzly or sharp. It's all about the restored breath of life. Things which previously felt somewhat flat, reined in and muted open up. Recorded ambience deepens and with it, spaciousness. If you're careful with the removal of the cloth, it's easy enough to put back. Try and see what you prefer. To my ears, nude is definitely the way forward - and not just by a few marginal inches but significantly."
tl;dr the regrilling allows for much better plankton extraction in the sound.
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this is really cool. would love to give these a listen.
not sure if you remember me jerg but I was at the montreal head-fi meet last year in august - and we just happened to live on the same street. :P (sorry for creepy)
never got to try the HE-500 with velours but I love the HE-500. I could bring my M^3 if you're interested in trying it. well mostly because I'd love to try the combo, as I'm getting a pair of HE-500... and your pads do seem promising. :D
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SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY, JERK, I MEAN JERG!
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this is really cool. would love to give these a listen.
not sure if you remember me jerg but I was at the montreal head-fi meet last year in august - and we just happened to live on the same street. :P (sorry for creepy)
never got to try the HE-500 with velours but I love the HE-500. I could bring my M^3 if you're interested in trying it. well mostly because I'd love to try the combo, as I'm getting a pair of HE-500... and your pads do seem promising. :D
YGPM
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SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY, JERK, I MEAN JERG!
gosh, don't be such a jerg... I mean jerk!
I assume no plans of doing this semi-commercially? I showed this to a friend who would love to try with his HE-6.
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Interesting how the HE500 CSD voicing with the modded pads bear some resemblance to HE5/HE6 plots now (upper mids looks like HE5, treble looks like HE6), just with a much thicker lower end relative to the upper end levels.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=848.0;attach=3010;image)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=308.0;attach=2395;image)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=376.0;attach=2391;image)
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After a bit more time with the Jergpads, I'm starting to become VERY curious how the V2 measures. The measurements are with the V1 pads right? Pad snipping, not the venting.
EDIT: Ignore me, just read it being V1.
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After a bit more time with the Jergpads, I'm starting to become VERY curious how the V2 measures. The measurements are with the V1 pads right? Pad snipping, not the venting.
EDIT: Ignore me, just read it being V1.
Yes the pads I sent to purrin were v1, which is basically Parts I and II of the v2 guide. It did not have the velour top mod or the sub-bass mod.
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Another thing, because of the Jergpads, genre selection is further increased. Before with the HE-500, all I listened to was Classical, Jazz, Acoustic, and Rock. Now with the Jergpads, Rap & Hip-Hop is now enjoyable. Before, it sounded a bit too thin and bass didn't hit hard enough.
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Well, either my variant of Jergpads v1 went terribly bad somehow, or I'm allergic to that 2 kHz cut. I'd love a reference set of pads for comparison, but I'm considering offloading these HE-500 onto someone else, because Paradox is so much better - both after equalization.
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Well, either my variant of Jergpads v1 went terribly bad somehow, or I'm allergic to that 2 kHz cut. I'd love a reference set of pads for comparison, but I'm considering offloading these HE-500 onto someone else, because Paradox is so much better - both after equalization.
Do you have some photos of the modded pads (especially the damping holes)?
Also try to describe what feels subjectively wrong with the sound after the modded pads, try not to reference to the measurements.
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Ok, too small hole surface area and too thin material for backvent. Yes, I've messed up and ended with undampened pleather pads. Obviously yuck.
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Hmm, got something closer to the end result. Let's call it Jerg pads 1.5 - steps 1, 2 and 4 with slightly different hole placement and thin tape instead of "whole".
Got rid of the screen and that silly plastic band holding the pad on the mounting ring.
Result is quite hefty subbass, closer to linear, laid back but with some nasal tonality. Much smoother sound. The weird 8.5k hole is not correctable though - perhaps the velour top mod would help with that. Equalized it's marvelous, especially the bass. Very hard to pick between it and equalized Paradox - it slightly wins on subbass and absolute extension and a bit better soundstage I think.
(http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/11/HE-500-leckerton-jergpad-no-screen.png)
Of course Paradox seems way easier to equalize. Anyway, I'll add the #3 mod later - perhaps it will remove the uneq'd nasal feeling and simplify the equalization.
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Hmm, got something closer to the end result. Let's call it Jerg pads 1.5 - steps 1, 2 and 4 with slightly different hole placement and thin tape instead of "whole".
Got rid of the screen and that silly plastic band holding the pad on the mounting ring.
Result is quite hefty subbass, closer to linear, laid back but with some nasal tonality. Much smoother sound. The weird 8.5k hole is not correctable though - perhaps the velour top mod would help with that. Equalized it's marvelous, especially the bass. Very hard to pick between it and equalized Paradox - it slightly wins on subbass and absolute extension and a bit better soundstage I think.
(http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/11/HE-500-leckerton-jergpad-no-screen.png)
Of course Paradox seems way easier to equalize. Anyway, I'll add the #3 mod later - perhaps it will remove the uneq'd nasal feeling and simplify the equalization.
What's your goal with the HE500s anyway? To make them as close to perfectly neutral as you can?
IMO instead of brute-forcing it like this, you're much better off picking up some HE5LE or HE6 (which have significantly more neutral measurements).
HE500 is not meant to be neutral, it is supposed to be a warm lush sound with a sweet treble serving to be the response to Audeze's LCD2.
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It still remains lush and warm tonally, but is now truly diffuse-field equalized. For instance, it's warmer, smoother and better extended in subbass than equalized Paradox. Slightly better at microdetailing too, except in bass. As you can see, I'm actually cutting highs most of the time.
That 8.5kHz notch baffles me as much as the next guy. The difference in tonality amounts to a stronger central focus and slightly wider soundstage as well as removal of the slight nasal tone.
The 1.5k dip is probably the same one as Purrin's 2k dip, except frequency shifted - this is a different pair. It's only ~6 dB.
Generally, with Jergpads and equalized, they remind me of a certain large 2-way DIY monitors, except yet better at bass. (Crossfeed obviously enabled.)
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What reference do you use for EQing astral (pink noise, equal-loudness sines, etc)?
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Many sine tones at -6 dBFS straight out of Foobar2000. General loudness is precalibrated to comfortable levels (like a normal talk) by listening to EBU R128 loudness compensated audiobooks and radio talks. (with reference level also set to -6 dBFS instead of default -12 dBFS)
I also use a tone sweep from a VST to find the exact widths of peaks/dips.
Reference is loudness of a 500 Hz sine tone.
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Many sine tones at -6 dBFS straight out of Foobar2000. General loudness is precalibrated to comfortable levels (like a normal talk) by listening to EBU R128 loudness compensated audiobooks and radio talks. (with reference level also set to -6 dBFS instead of default -12 dBFS)
I also use a tone sweep from a VST to find the exact widths of peaks/dips.
Reference is loudness of a 500 Hz sine tone.
Wow. I just use my ears. :D
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It still remains lush and warm tonally, but is now truly diffuse-field equalized. For instance, it's warmer, smoother and better extended in subbass than equalized Paradox. Slightly better at microdetailing too, except in bass. As you can see, I'm actually cutting highs most of the time.
That 8.5kHz notch baffles me as much as the next guy. The difference in tonality amounts to a stronger central focus and slightly wider soundstage as well as removal of the slight nasal tone.
The 1.5k dip is probably the same one as Purrin's 2k dip, except frequency shifted - this is a different pair. It's only ~6 dB.
Generally, with Jergpads and equalized, they remind me of a certain large 2-way DIY monitors, except yet better at bass. (Crossfeed obviously enabled.)
Could you pass along the current state EQ file? I'd like to take it for a spin and see if your equalization works with my ears (at least partially).
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Many sine tones at -6 dBFS straight out of Foobar2000. General loudness is precalibrated to comfortable levels (like a normal talk) by listening to EBU R128 loudness compensated audiobooks and radio talks. (with reference level also set to -6 dBFS instead of default -12 dBFS)
I also use a tone sweep from a VST to find the exact widths of peaks/dips.
Reference is loudness of a 500 Hz sine tone.
Wow. I just use my ears. :D
Same here, what do you think I measure these with? :)p7 I don't own a measurement rig other than the nature's best.
I figured out a linear sounding headphones sound the best and have been time and again convinced of it.
EQ files are attached, but obviously the resonances or the 8.5k peak might not match your HE-500/ears - please adjust as necessary.
The 37 Hz notch is a bone conduction thing - it's the highest for example in my SE-5 CIEM and HE-500 with Jergpads 1+2+4 are also transmitting that very well.
Removal of the 8.5k notch EQ does not change much after the surrounding two peak EQs (7k and 9.25k) are bypassed to compensate, it's that narrow. Slightly changes tonality of cymbals and adds a slight bit of muddiness to the sound.
Velour EQ on Jergpads sounds super flattened and somewhat dry.
I forgot to mention: without a crossfeed the eq sounds very much like a sound line through head in a boundless space, unless you use a binaural recording.
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Many sine tones at -6 dBFS straight out of Foobar2000. General loudness is precalibrated to comfortable levels (like a normal talk) by listening to EBU R128 loudness compensated audiobooks and radio talks. (with reference level also set to -6 dBFS instead of default -12 dBFS)
I also use a tone sweep from a VST to find the exact widths of peaks/dips.
Reference is loudness of a 500 Hz sine tone.
Wow. I just use my ears. :D
Same here, what do you think I measure these with? :)p7 I don't own a measurement rig other than the nature's best.
I figured out a linear sounding headphones sound the best and have been time and again convinced of it.
EQ files are attached, but obviously the resonances or the 8.5k peak might not match your HE-500/ears - please adjust as necessary.
The 37 Hz notch is a bone conduction thing - it's the highest for example in my SE-5 CIEM and HE-500 with Jergpads 1+2+4 are also transmitting that very well.
Removal of the 8.5k notch EQ does not change much after the surrounding two peak EQs (7k and 9.25k) are bypassed to compensate, it's that narrow. Slightly changes tonality of cymbals and adds a slight bit of muddiness to the sound.
Velour EQ on Jergpads sounds super flattened and somewhat dry.
Yeah I did some more SineGen sinewave sweeps and indeed my pair has a sharp notch at around 8.2kHz for me (starts at 7.9kHz, rebounds abruptly at 8.5kHz). Could just be result of the natural interaction between the sound waves and our ear canals?
I'll check out your EQ profiles in a bit.
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you should use music. Sitting around EQ'ing with sine waves is a bit absurd.
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Build yourself a measurement rig.
It is not that hard to make nor expensive.
You do have to know how to handle a soldering station.
I plan to write a tutorial with a compensated pre-amp in it for WM61 mics.
To make the amp section all you need is the filter PCB.
I always believed your ears are well suited for the job (figuring out 'flat')... until I built me one...
Also I feel drastic EQ's aren't as good as gentle ones and not every HP reacts well to EQ.
Only HP's that need a nudge are suited for EQ.
The HE500 reacts very well.
But that's just my opinion.
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you should use music. Sitting around EQ'ing with sine waves is a bit absurd.
Music does not work for fine equalization, but finely equalized headphones work well for all kinds of music.
I do not equalize them to be perceptually flat for sake of flatness, but because music sounds best then.
(Neither does wideband noise. Narrowband noise works, but no better than sines. Tone sweeps work too, but are harder to precisely tune the amount than tones, but make for more accurate peak widths.)
I will build a rig one of these days.
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I actually use recordings which I know for EQ. I'm past listening to sine waves or narrow band noise.
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Well, I tried that too for a change, but the results were much worse, probably due to narrow peaks not being audible with many recordings, but really tripping up the ones that feature those frequencies prominently.
Even going through a wide variety of tracks and genres, there's always something I haven't checked that will terribly trip up one way or the other - and achieving even an acceptable result on all of them takes way longer. My experiment with RE-400 for example took 60 minutes and was nowhere near as good. Something better behaved like Paradox would be faster than that - but then I ended up with a really watered down variant of a non-diffuse-field eq which still sounded muffled.
A precise equalization with sines (like for Paradox or HE-500) takes me about 45 minutes. A fast semi-precise "starting point" eq takes me 15 minutes.
If I have a reference point (e.g. RE-400 vs formerly equalized RE-ZERO), it takes much shorter, I've equalized RE-400 precisely in 10.
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see my 'motto' below ;)
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Oh, but sometimes briefly using ears as analyzer can result in higher enjoyment of music, long time. This is one such case.
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Were there any changes to distortion with the Jergpads?
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Did some subjective EQ tests today, turns out the slight 2kHz dip introduced by the mods causes the sound to be a bit drier but clearer than if I EQ'd that region to be "in line".
It (the dip) certainly isn't contributing to any "cupped" effects or anything, it just attenuates the lushness / wetness of midrange down a little bit. I don't mind it at all.
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Yes, the slight cupped sound is due to the higher end "wiggles" - typical sound of comb filtering. I'll add the velour on top tomorrow and check again - this might fix it.
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Just tweaked my Jergpads and re-did the mods as I had nothing better to do today. I suppose I did it correctly this time seeing how the HE-500 is able to hit 18Hz more audibly now than before my first attempt at the mod.
EDIT: Here's where I usually test bass http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php (http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php)
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Just tweaked my Jergpads and re-did the mods as I had nothing better to do today. I suppose I did it correctly this time seeing how the HE-500 is able to hit 18Hz more audibly now than before my first attempt at the mod.
EDIT: Here's where I usually test bass http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php (http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php)
Yeah the sub-bass really gets "fixed" doesn't it.
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Tweaked my Jergpads with velour top mod and used rubber glue instead of tape to connect the pads more securely to the plastic base - they had a tendency to unglue from it.
Now they're fully modded with that extra glue change which can only positively affect subbass.
I'll provide the equalization results soon - they're definitely slightly more comfortable and slightly thicker, sound a bit more linear. The sound is definitely a bit less nasal, more open and airy, but I can't really say how much. The balance on the whole is very similar to previous Jergpads without velour top - bit too bright.
They look highly DIY with that velour on top - I'd have to attach the "loose" ends of the velour ring to the pad proper, e.g. by actually sewing it there instead of just attaching with tape.
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And here's the equalization. It's a bit different from previous Jergpads. The bass is definitely less distorted, the best of the all, but slightly quieter. I suppose the rubber holds the pads better and creates a slightly higher seal giving more damping. I've also tightened the cup regulation nuts that were a bit too loose.
Despite this, or because of it, the balance is definitely very bright. Perhaps I should reattach the dust screen to slightly tame the treble.
Extension with the eq is 17Hz - 20kHz, notably better than with previous version.
The result without equalization sounds "electric", perhaps slightly metallic, very refined, more so than the previous pads. Not nasal in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of a much more extended and impactful version of Brainwavz B2 IEM. Bit laid back (mids?) despite the brightness, with notable V shape. More likable than either the stock velours, stock pleathers, T70 velours or previous version of Jergpads with its nasality.
In this configuration, they easily beat Paradox if equalized. Unequalized, they're not smooth enough in the frequency response and present a "wall" flattened soundstage.
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And here's the equalization. It's a bit different from previous Jergpads. The bass is definitely less distorted, the best of the all, but slightly quieter. I suppose the rubber holds the pads better and creates a slightly higher seal giving more damping. I've also tightened the cup regulation nuts that were a bit too loose.
Despite this, or because of it, the balance is definitely very bright. Perhaps I should reattach the dust screen to slightly tame the treble.
Extension with the eq is 17Hz - 20kHz, notably better than with previous version.
The result without equalization sounds "electric", perhaps slightly metallic, very refined, more so than the previous pads. Not nasal in the slightest. Kind of reminds me of a much more extended and impactful version of Brainwavz B2 IEM. Bit laid back (mids?) despite the brightness, with notable V shape. More likable than either the stock velours, stock pleathers, T70 velours or previous version of Jergpads with its nasality.
In this configuration, they easily beat Paradox if equalized. Unequalized, they're not smooth enough in the frequency response and present a "wall" flattened soundstage.
Wait you removed the pleather dust screen?
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Of course I did. The previous pads didn't have it either. That thing eats a bit of refinement, but indeed it does make the sound bit less bright - unfortunately not in the right range. It damages highest end air by some 6 dB or more.
I'm considering some other option that's much less dense than the original dust filter as well as modification of the back grille. (but I will keep the back dust screen)
The front is protected when the headphones are not in use.
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Of course I did. The previous pads didn't have it either. That thing eats a bit of refinement, but indeed it does make the sound bit less bright - unfortunately not in the right range. It damages highest end air by some 6 dB or more.
I'm considering some other option that's much less dense than the original dust filter as well as modification of the back grille. (but I will keep the back dust screen)
The front is protected when the headphones are not in use.
Well, the pair I sent for purrin's measurements, as well as the pair I currently use, both have the pleather dust screen.
Subjectively it tames the treble enough that it felt congruent with the midrange, and objectively what it does is flatten out the mid-treble peak, hence giving the treble more smoothness as well as less peakiness.
Going from "obvious details" to "less obvious details" with headphone modding, even if the latter offers more refinement, can be jarring enough that you feel something is missing right off. All it takes is to listen to the latter for a whole day and all would be appreciated by your brain. The detail is always there, just more naturally so.
Since you opted not to use the dust screen, then I can't relate to any of your impressions at all. Sorry.
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Actually I did both with and without, the treble is indeed lowered, but so is the air. The detailing is not "in-your-face" in either Jergpads with or without dust cover - velour has much more of an effect. The cover makes the small peaks in highs smoother (easier to equalize), but at a cost, probably minor audible amount of distortion.
Now, since I have an equalizer (not like HE-500 are portable) and air is hard to eq properly without ringing or noise, I opted to leave it out.
The velour top increases treble and air noticeably. Using glue instead of tape adds a bit of extra damping - which reduces but speeds up bass and reduces distortion even more. Recommended on the whole, especially if you can equalize it back to perfect.
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I've modded another pair of pads, without the annoying velour this time. Yes, velour doesn't improve the sound and makes them "scruffy".
Decided to keep the foam damper. Still has pad vents, but in large holes, not a pattern. This, along with the foam, keeps the pads stiffer and higher.
Trimmed the mounting tape to not cover the holes in the back of the plastic.
No venting yet, as they're real close to neutral sound. I'll try with smaller amount of venting.
8k "blip", surrounding wiggles and 14k dip are definitely caused by the back metal grille. Removing it removes this issue, but I'll need something quite transparent to dustproof.
Likewise the front dust cover is not transparent, eats 2 dB of mids and highs, starting with 1kHz.
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Yep, small back bottom vent (2 strips of electric isolation tape per channel, 4 times each) improved this without introducing a 4k peak and a huge 2k dip. :)p3
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I've modded another pair of pads, without the annoying velour this time. Yes, velour doesn't improve the sound and makes them "scruffy".
Decided to keep the foam damper. Still has pad vents, but in large holes, not a pattern. This, along with the foam, keeps the pads stiffer and higher.
Trimmed the mounting tape to not cover the holes in the back of the plastic.
No venting yet, as they're real close to neutral sound. I'll try with smaller amount of venting.
8k "blip", surrounding wiggles and 14k dip are definitely caused by the back metal grille. Removing it removes this issue, but I'll need something quite transparent to dustproof.
Likewise the front dust cover is not transparent, eats 2 dB of mids and highs, starting with 1kHz.
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Yep, small back bottom vent (2 strips of electric isolation tape per channel, 4 times each) improved this without introducing a 4k peak and a huge 2k dip. :)p3
I can't quite follow your train of thought / mods without any picture references from you. What do you mean small back bottom vent? Also from your experiences, what is causing the 2k dip / 4k hump?
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It seems that removing the foam circles from the pads causes the 4k peak and 2k dip. Maybe your original pads didn't have that?
The back vents generally lift treble up or reduce bass - full ones as described in the mod, by ~4 dB - 1.5 mm thick - makes them way too bright if the dust cover is removed, but correct with the dust cover. These tiny slit ones lift only by 1.5 dB. The slit is 0.4mm thick and narrower due to the use of only 2 layered pieces of tape per channel.
Removing the dust cover increases treble above 7k like a 2 dB/oct parametric equalizer, except it doesn't boost the 10k part. Vents work slightly lower, above 5k, so the sound is a bit different.
Cutting large holes (or many small ones) in the back of the pads smooths out 6k dip and reduces bass resonance - cupped feeling to the sound - but you already know that.
Removing back grille (and dust cover) removes small wiggles in the 5-9k range as well as the huge 8k dip. Reduces the 14.5k dip as well. Makes the sound yet more open.
Just trying it is trivial - use a flat screwdriver to remove the holding rings, then remove the grille. Easy to replace.
Velour top mod causes a large midrange (500 Hz-1.5k) dip with a minor subbass drop. Also velour is nasty and abrasive. Adhesion mod never worked right for me, unglued after a time - I'll try again with a stronger adhesive.
Now I'm trying to figure out a way to protect the headphone against the dust without damaging the sonic qualities, as well as a way to remove the remaining 14k dip (~3 dB) and the slight 1k-2k dip.
In general, very similar to Jergpad 1+2, with different hole structure (large holes in the middle instead of more slightly smaller ones), smaller slits and no frontal dust cover. Jergpad 1+2 still had some remaining highest end cut. I didn't attach them with tape just yet, only the pads to the mounting rings. I've also attached the pad to the mounting ring with some extra tape at the "large slits" parts without covering any - so that the pad never falls off the ring.
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It seems that removing the foam circles from the pads causes the 4k peak and 2k dip. Maybe your original pads didn't have that?
The back vents generally lift treble up or reduce bass - full ones as described in the mod, by ~4 dB - 1.5 mm thick - makes them way too bright if the dust cover is removed, but correct with the dust cover. These tiny slit ones lift only by 1.5 dB. The slit is 0.4mm thick and narrower due to the use of only 2 layered pieces of tape per channel.
Removing the dust cover increases treble above 7k like a 2 dB/oct parametric equalizer, except it doesn't boost the 10k part. Vents work slightly lower, above 5k, so the sound is a bit different.
Cutting large holes (or many small ones) in the back of the pads smooths out 6k dip and reduces bass resonance - cupped feeling to the sound - but you already know that.
Removing back grille (and dust cover) removes small wiggles in the 5-9k range as well as the huge 8k dip. Reduces the 14.5k dip as well. Makes the sound yet more open.
Just trying it is trivial - use a flat screwdriver to remove the holding rings, then remove the grille. Easy to replace.
Velour top mod causes a large midrange (500 Hz-1.5k) dip with a minor subbass drop. Also velour is nasty and abrasive. Adhesion mod never worked right for me, unglued after a time - I'll try again with a stronger adhesive.
Now I'm trying to figure out a way to protect the headphone against the dust without damaging the sonic qualities, as well as a way to remove the remaining 14k dip (~3 dB) and the slight 1k-2k dip.
In general, very similar to Jergpad 1+2, with different hole structure (large holes in the middle instead of more slightly smaller ones), smaller slits and no frontal dust cover. Jergpad 1+2 still had some remaining highest end cut. I didn't attach them with tape just yet, only the pads to the mounting rings. I've also attached the pad to the mounting ring with some extra tape at the "large slits" parts without covering any - so that the pad never falls off the ring.
I've been tinkering around and it seems to me as though the 2kHz depression is purely due to the closeness of the ears to the drivers. If I tuck anything under the pleather pads (be it the stock foam rings, or just some cotton etc), or even just plush up the pleathers by pinching it around so it thickens up, the 2kHz dip goes away mostly. That coincides too with the velour pad measurements, since velours are significantly thicker than pleathers (sans tucked foam rings).
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My most recent EQ attempt at jergpadded HE500, based purely on my ears and sinewaves.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/6/6c/6c16b1e3_HE500jergpadsEQjul272013.jpeg)
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Hmm, mine needed more equalization near 1.5k, but generally similar. (My HE-500 had bit more of a dip there to begin with.) They're bit brighter, since I got rid of the detail-sucking grille cloth and the back grille itself, since it's causing an 8k blip. (No, that doesn't cause the 1.5k dip to go deeper.)
The cloth only takes a bit >10k, but it's noticeable and unwelcome.
Your pair seems way more linear somehow. Maybe you've a better one or you're accustomed to the sound, or you have a way different HRTF.
You're doing around 2-3 dB adjustments, I'm using almost full 12 dB. Or maybe your pads are thicker?
The subbass thingy is specific to my ears - I have pronounced bone conduction at this frequency, about 36 Hz.
Full mod without the fuzz on top, w/ the stock foam rings - the fuzz actually kinda breaks the subbass handling and boosts 500 Hz more.
Extra things to make them better attached - instead of rubber glue, uses more duct tape.
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Anyone here looking to sell me their jerg pads? I just bought an HE-400 and I want to hear for myself what the fuss is about