CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: elan_vital on July 07, 2015, 12:38:29 AM
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Not looking for a specific headphone recommendation. Question is about attributes and qualities. Specially qualities which can be qualifiable via reviewing and can be scored (i.e. soundstage). Im trying to define what an ideal Jazz Headphone should be and am wondering what the community thinks are the key features of such headphones. Here is how i see it - on the spec side i made circum-aural and Open design as essential, and on the reviewable (more subjective side) I have prioritized; Soundstage as most important, Highs, Mids and Bass as all equally important (for a balanced sound). Mind you i have added Bass extension as somewhat important to get a bit fuller sound (Dave Holland was asking for that one). Also, bonus points are added to comfortable fit for those long sessions. I do understand that some might like that cutting sound, border-lining on sibilance, in which case Detail extension would be prioritized. Or those who wish to have uncoloured sounding headphones in which case priority should be placed on cans which score high in the Neutral Sound realm. Anyhow. I'm wondering what everyone considers to be an ideal set of attributes. Its like a reverse search approach - Let's define the attributes and see which cans fit those criteria in terms of both specs and subjective attributes (for this the glossary thread http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2468.0.html to find descriptive language might work well). In short, i'm looking for a set of rules which will define or get close to defining what great Jazz Cans should be.
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This, as with most things in this hobby, will really come down to personal preference.
My measure of "sonic goodness" is real life. I enjoy going to local jazz clubs and listening to music LIVE. When I listen on my playback systems, I want my music to sound as lifelike as possible. In order to get that experience, the real measure of sonic replication then comes down to source material. If the source material is great, then any neutral sounding headphone will give you the presentation you want. Some people want bass extension falsely believing they are missing the low bass when, in reality, there is NO low bass. I also see a lot of noobs recommending bright headphones because they are "highly resolving". This is bullshit. They aren't highly resolving - they are just giving you MORE treble. Resolution spans the entire frequency range - not just the high end. The real magic in music is in the mid-range. If you can find a headphone that accurately reproduces mid-range, then you should be fine. Tailor to your preferences after that.
My personal preference is to have a neutral headphone. I want to hear what's on those grooves, what's encoded on that tape, what those bits are doing, etc. There is no system out there that will fix a crap sounding source.
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Precise laser locked imaging. Tons of (full-range) resolution and inner harmonics and micro detail. Excellent sense of space and air between performers. Big slamming macro dynamics. Articulate and nuanced micro dynamics. Wide gamut tonal color. Solid bass punch and impact all the way to sweet but splashy and jarring treble crash (not over smoothed plastic treble). The ability to render an almost vivid 3D sonic picture that can see all the way through wet and smoky vocals on a good master. In other words modded HD800.
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Precise laser locked imaging. Tons of (full-range) resolution and inner harmonics and micro detail. Excellent sense of space and air between performers. Big slamming macro dynamics. Articulate and nuanced micro dynamics. Wide gamut tonal color. Solid bass punch and impact all the way to sweet but splashy and jarring treble crash (not over smoothed plastic treble). The ability to render an almost vivid 3D sonic picture that can see all the way through wet and smoky vocals on a good master. In other words modded HD800.
Modded HD800 doesn't have lasers!
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Modded HD800 doesn't have lasers!
Because you stole them and left them at the last stripper joint! GG.
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Modded HD800 doesn't have lasers!
...and the HD800 mods remove all the detail! :'(
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Because you stole them and left them at the last stripper joint! GG.
Bah! Foiled by those greedy strippers! Ahh....reminds me of this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJwRuNtvDTk
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...and the HD800 mods remove all the detail! :'(
Shut your face Stax whore! :-*
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Jazz.. it recovers a large range of music..... what are we talking about here ? Diana Krall or Cecil Taylor? Old 50s Hardbop/bebop or modern Fusion ? European contemporary Jazz or Frank Sinatra ? Sun ra Orchestra or Keith Jarret solos ?
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This, as with most things in this hobby, will really come down to personal preference.
My measure of "sonic goodness" is real life. I enjoy going to local jazz clubs and listening to music LIVE. When I listen on my playback systems, I want my music to sound as lifelike as possible. In order to get that experience, the real measure of sonic replication then comes down to source material. If the source material is great, then any neutral sounding headphone will give you the presentation you want. Some people want bass extension falsely believing they are missing the low bass when, in reality, there is NO low bass. I also see a lot of noobs recommending bright headphones because they are "highly resolving". This is bullshit. They aren't highly resolving - they are just giving you MORE treble. Resolution spans the entire frequency range - not just the high end. The real magic in music is in the mid-range. If you can find a headphone that accurately reproduces mid-range, then you should be fine. Tailor to your preferences after that.
My personal preference is to have a neutral headphone. I want to hear what's on those grooves, what's encoded on that tape, what those bits are doing, etc. There is no system out there that will fix a crap sounding source.
(http://img.pandawhale.com/post-58965-bruce-lee-thumbs-up-gif-Imgur-bLuE.gif)
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Definitely not Diana Krall. That's just really bad soft porn.
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You with your HD800s, lasers and details. facepalm
Take a KSC75 Kossinator as a starting point. Works like a charm. :)p8
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Definitely not Diana Krall. That's just really bad soft porn.
AH AH AH AH AH ...
I came to work this morning and thought " Jeez... headphones for Jazz... I hope they don't talk bout Diana Krall.... that's just smooth viagra for old mens " LOL
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AH AH AH AH AH ...
I came to work this morning and thought " Jeez... headphones for Jazz... I hope they don't talk bout Diana Krall.... that's just smooth viagra for old mens " LOL
hello,
but it works!
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Dunno. I'm not old enough :)p13
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You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have headphones with frickin' laser beams attached to the cans.
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Jazz.. it recovers a large range of music..... what are we talking about here ? Diana Krall or Cecil Taylor? Old 50s Hardbop/bebop or modern Fusion ? European contemporary Jazz or Frank Sinatra ? Sun ra Orchestra or Keith Jarret solos ?
Agreed - Let's start with two camps. Vocal Jazz (insert your favorite, well recorded vocalist here :-[) and something like Możdżer Danielsson Fresco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruE3h2nUzgg&list=RDruE3h2nUzgg#t=2295
How would you set the preference for mids lows and highs for each. Would vocalists get more priority on mids? Would acoustic Jazz require the same attributes or would one want a bit more extension in highs and more soundstage?
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Is this a headphone question or a mastering question?
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Is this a headphone question or a mastering question?
Same question...
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Is this a headphone question or a mastering question?
I mean, what would you like your ideal headphones to excel at when listening to different kinds of jazz. It's like prioritizing what you think the headphones should sound like.
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I mean, what would you like your ideal headphones to excel at when listening to different kinds of jazz. It's like prioritizing what you think the headphones should sound like.
Well, I gave my answer already. The type of jazz doesn't matter to my response. At least for me.
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Seriously , take the best headphone you can and You'll be happy with all Jazz music. At least contemporary one. it's well recorded and mastered. Enjoy that with a good neutral and resolving headphone. I don't feel the need to use a very special headphone for Jazz Music. Resolution matters for Jazz due to the high quality of recordings/mastering. IMO . Imaging matters as well. for the FR... depends of your tastes. Some will prefer warmer sound sig when I prefer Clarity.
For older recordings , depending on the quality , the same good headphone will be OK but some crossfeed helps in my experience.
One of my reference vocalist is Youn Sun Nah :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScfIqEdLx0Q
and Currently I'm listening Gonzalo Rubalcaba :
(http://d250ptlkmugbjz.cloudfront.net/images/covers/54/41/0724349924154_600.jpg)
Both sounds Stellar with my HD800 , a Stax Lambda NB or a HE-6 . HE5LE sound a bit "off" for my tastes for that music.
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Not looking for a specific headphone recommendation. Question is about attributes and qualities. Specially qualities which can be qualifiable via reviewing and can be scored (i.e. soundstage). Im trying to define what an ideal Jazz Headphone should be and am wondering what the community thinks are the key features of such headphones. Here is how i see it - on the spec side i made circum-aural and Open design as essential, and on the reviewable (more subjective side) I have prioritized; Soundstage as most important, Highs, Mids and Bass as all equally important (for a balanced sound). Mind you i have added Bass extension as somewhat important to get a bit fuller sound (Dave Holland was asking for that one). Also, bonus points are added to comfortable fit for those long sessions. I do understand that some might like that cutting sound, border-lining on sibilance, in which case Detail extension would be prioritized. Or those who wish to have uncoloured sounding headphones in which case priority should be placed on cans which score high in the Neutral Sound realm. Anyhow. I'm wondering what everyone considers to be an ideal set of attributes. Its like a reverse search approach - Let's define the attributes and see which cans fit those criteria in terms of both specs and subjective attributes (for this the glossary thread http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2468.0.html to find descriptive language might work well). In short, i'm looking for a set of rules which will define or get close to defining what great Jazz Cans should be.
I ask this question as i'm working on a site which is somewhat of a recommendation engine. It works by making certain attributes more important and other attributes less important (totally customizable by anyone). I'm hoping to define what "Jazz headphones" should sound like so the app can return good selection of cans for that application. The bast way to illustrate what i'm after is to link to what i'm doing, and it's been pointed out to me by one of the senior members here that, indeed, asking direct question is the changstar way and thus the community will be able to respond and understand my concern clearly. So, i saved this set of attributes which i think are important when looking for audiophile headphones.
http://www.acqurate.com/553806881f49d2bd155d2d55#below-header
I know how to tweak the settings to get close to results for the "Jazz" sound i want,
http://www.acqurate.com/559c4db411f5306c72254e56#below-header
but i'm wondering what everybody here thinks. and what others consider to be ideal settings, and if the selection reflects those settings (note this is all still in early stages and some cans might have some data gaps). But yeah, that's where my query comes from.
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hello,
you may have some issues here if you are giving the LCD-X and the HD800's the same "Acqurate Score" of 98 . and list the "Acqurate Score" for the K812 at 94.
or are those preliminary numbers?
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hello,
you may have some issues here if you are giving the LCD-X and the HD800's the same "Acqurate Score" of 98 . and list the "Acqurate Score" for the K812 at 94.
or are those preliminary numbers?
Thanks for checking it out. The acqurate score is not a static score. It changes depending on which attributes are selected and and how important one makes them. For example, if someone makes comfort important, headphones with favorable reviews for comfort will be pushed ahead of other headphones. But, yes, we are in the early stages and have just done a first pass to get a good cross-section of data. We are now looking to fine-tune that. More Reviews and specially comparative reviews are needed to create separation between headphones which end up with similar acqurate scores.
P.S. The scores come from individual scores for each attribute, plus any desired specs - still missing some review data. but how would you rank these headphones when it comes to listening to jazz music? How much separation do you think should be between them?
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hello,
my observation was based on choosing no attributes, so i felt this might be an indication of overall rating/ranking. if not, my bad. facepalm
the issue i have is with the extreme instrument separation on some jazz recordings e.g. Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", i would want cans (or a two channel set-up for that matter) to have a MONO switch. ???
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hello,
my observation was based on choosing no attributes, so i felt this might be an indication of overall rating/ranking. if not, my bad. facepalm
the issue i have is with the extreme instrument separation on some jazz recordings e.g. Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", i would want cans (or a two channel set-up for that matter) to have a MONO switch. ???
Good point, especially with older recordings. DJ gear usually has stereo/mono switches and old receivers and integrated amplifiers used to have them too. Great feature...
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hello,
my observation was based on choosing no attributes, so i felt this might be an indication of overall rating/ranking. if not, my bad. facepalm
the issue i have is with the extreme instrument separation on some jazz recordings e.g. Coltrane's "A Love Supreme", i would want cans (or a two channel set-up for that matter) to have a MONO switch. ???
Some preamps have that function as well. Haven't heard of headphones which can do that, but i guess one could use a stereo to mono adapter plug.
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My AKG K181DJ has that switch. Here is another example.
(http://www.hinhuatdj.com/images/stanton/product/headphone/st_2000_1.jpg)
Some DJ headphones sound better than you think. The Stanton is one of them...
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Subjective rankings based on ownership:
95 - Stax SR007 (the only headphone, for jazz at least, to supplant #2)
90 - HD650 (properly driven, i.e, Zana)
88 - Grado HP1 (won't give you the euphony if it's not on the recording, can sound lifeless, amazing tuning)
80 - SR009 (glazed doughnut, doesn't dig deep in the lower registers, puts you closer to the music than anything else)
80- HE60 (excels with vocals, KY-jelly-smooth mids can be distracting, not enough impact, most euphonic)
78- HE6 (imaging can be wonky, sharp highs, artificially dynamic, misses subtleties)
70- LCD-3 (a little too thick and creamy for me)
65 - HD800 (massive staging distracts, sharp sans mods)
60 - SR507 (a bit sterile, boring, little bright)
55 - AD2000 (crazy headphone, tonally askew)
? - Koss Electrostatic - never heard, but trusted accounts say great with jazz
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This, as with most things in this hobby, will really come down to personal preference.
My measure of "sonic goodness" is real life. I enjoy going to local jazz clubs and listening to music LIVE. When I listen on my playback systems, I want my music to sound as lifelike as possible. In order to get that experience, the real measure of sonic replication then comes down to source material. If the source material is great, then any neutral sounding headphone will give you the presentation you want. Some people want bass extension falsely believing they are missing the low bass when, in reality, there is NO low bass. I also see a lot of noobs recommending bright headphones because they are "highly resolving". This is bullshit. They aren't highly resolving - they are just giving you MORE treble. Resolution spans the entire frequency range - not just the high end. The real magic in music is in the mid-range. If you can find a headphone that accurately reproduces mid-range, then you should be fine. Tailor to your preferences after that.
My personal preference is to have a neutral headphone. I want to hear what's on those grooves, what's encoded on that tape, what those bits are doing, etc. There is no system out there that will fix a crap sounding source.
Can I ask what headphone you reccommend? your explanation seems like what I love to hear!
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My AKG K181DJ has that switch. Here is another example.
Some DJ headphones sound better than you think. The Stanton is one of them...
Thanks. i'll be adding it to the searchable specs on my site. Was not aware of that function being available or desirable. I guess DJs often monitor in mono to match the mono output of the PA. I can also see wanting to hear recordings which were recorded in mono be reproduced in mono.
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Thanks. i'll be adding it to the searchable specs on my site. Was not aware of that function being available or desirable. I guess DJs often monitor in mono to match the mono output of the PA. I can also see wanting to hear recordings which were recorded in mono be reproduced in mono.
You can make it easier. Try to find a on old amplifier with switches and knobs from the vinyl era and breathe some new live into it. You can pick those oldies up for next to nothing and they are usually completely analogue. Which means that you can modify them, improve the signal chain and even "tube them up" if you have the skills.
Old studio and DJ-system amplifiers from Philips and Pioneer among other brands can be turned into audiophile machines. Sansui and Fisher tend to cost more but you can find affordable good ones.
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I have updated the attribute selection for what i would would want my Jazz Cans to sound like http://www.acqurate.com/559c4db411f5306c72254e56
Wondering if the the community would agree with how i adjusted the importance of each attribute, keeping in mind my leanings are towards lush mids and extended lows, perhaps at expense of neutrality and resolution. With more reviews for each headphone, relative scoring should get better and better, but i'm also wondering if at this point the system returns decent selection at each different prices.
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my leanings are towards lush mids and extended lows, perhaps at expense of neutrality and resolution.
Sounds like LCD-3 to me.
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Sounds like LCD-3 to me.
That's great to hear as they did make the top of the list.
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Eh, LCD-3 is too sluggish for jazz imo. They don't impart musical dynamics and seem to render too much information at the same volume. They have two-three volume levels, where a SR007/009 has six or seven. In other words, when it comes to nuances, they're flat and sterile. For most varieties of rock, metal, shoegaze, industrial and trip-hop they're the shit. Jazz needs a more nimble headphone I think.
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Eh, LCD-3 is too sluggish for jazz imo. They don't impart musical dynamics and seem to render too much information at the same volume. They have two-three volume levels, where a SR007/009 has six or seven. In other words, when it comes to nuances, they're flat and sterile. For most varieties of rock, metal, shoegaze, industrial and trip-hop they're the shit. Jazz needs a more nimble headphone I think.
SR007's made it in 3rd place, which i think is not bad given that we need lots more reviews of these headphones to achieve a more nuanced refinement between each of the attributes. (read - there are still some gaps in data), but i think its getting there. if i add more priority to neutral sound, HD800's take the top spot. The system is just a starting point (its like a good cross-section of top contenders), so further refined opinions of individualized perspectives are so important and can never be substituted, especially when the discourse gets to be so discrete. P.S. We should add "nimble" to the Pyrate Glossary http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2468.0.html
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No disrespect to the Philips X1 and the HD700 (ok, a little disrespect since the latter really does sound like poo), but where is the HD6x0 series? Take a HD650 plug it into a Zana Deux and you'll have found the Elysian Fields with Art Tatum and Bill Evans taking turns on the piano in the parlor. Seriously, you need to slot the HD650 in there; which oh by the way comes at a fraction of the LCD's cost and handles the genre better to boot.
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Get an HD600, HD650, or HD800 with a top shelf amp (see HD800 amp list) and DAC or SR007mk1/SR009 with a top shelf amp (KGST or T2) and DAC and begone (or report back how we were full of crap and gave you bad advice). In other words, use the ericfarrel85 jazz headphone picker engine.
www.acqurate.com (http://www.acqurate.com) can go shove its fist up port 80.
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No disrespect to the Philips X1 and the HD700 (ok, a little disrespect since the latter really does sound like ), but where is the HD6x0 series? Take a HD650 plug it into a Zana Deux and you'll have found the Elysian Fields with Art Tatum and Bill Evans taking turns on the piano in the parlor. Seriously, you need to slot the HD650 in there; which oh by the way comes at a fraction of the LCD's cost and handles the genre better to boot.
I was somewhat surprised by X1 making the list myself - note that it is based on one review which compared them to hd800 amongst other headphones and raved about how good those headphones are. I have a feeling their score will go down as soon as some other reviews are entered. Conversely i suspect that HD650 will get up there with time and, again, as more reviews are entered and review gaps are filled).
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Get an HD600, HD650, or HD800 with a top shelf amp (see HD800 amp list) and DAC or SR007mk1/SR009 with a top shelf amp (KGST or T2) and DAC and begone (or report back how we were full of crap and gave you bad advice). In other words, use the ericfarrel85 jazz headphone picker engine.
ericfarrel85's Jazz picker is next level. We do think though, that we can create a good resource (with help and guidance of knowledgable community), and create a great starting point for any product research, especially when it comes, indeed, to main stream consumption - with hope that the consumers choose something better than what is normally shaved down their throats by commercial sites and marketing efforts.
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For jazz, I prefer headphones that are kind of blue. ;)
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For jazz, I prefer headphones that are kind of blue. ;)
So What! :-Z
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So What! :-Z
Giant Steps?
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The Changstar consensus: The ideal jazz headphone is also the ideal rock headphone is also the ideal metal headphone is also the ideal country headphone is also the ideal classical headphone, etc.
The idea that any specific headphone is better tailored to a specific genre is completely foreign here. A more important variable might be who mastered it instead of what genre. I'd suggest HF as a better place to solicit such input. Not being mean, but just saying how it is.
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The Changstar consensus: The ideal jazz headphone is also the ideal rock headphone is also the ideal metal headphone is also the ideal country headphone is also the ideal classical headphone, etc.
The idea that any specific headphone is better tailored to a specific genre is completely foreign here. A more important variable might be who mastered it instead of what genre. I'd suggest HF as a better place to solicit such input. Not being mean, but just saying how it is.
In short "Bitches Brew"?
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Giant Steps?
I thought we were sticking to Davis.
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Can I ask what headphone you reccommend? your explanation seems like what I love to hear!
LFF won't recommend his own headphones. For that description, especially if you want a closed headphone, I'd recommend Paradox Slants. I'm listening to Ella Fitzgerald at work on them right now and it's quite enjoyable.
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I thought we were sticking to Davis.
To quote Mingus "Ah Um."
(http://www.eeuwigweekend.nl/wp-content/2010/06/Miles-Davis-miles-smiles.jpg)
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The Changstar consensus: The ideal jazz headphone is also the ideal rock headphone is also the ideal metal headphone is also the ideal country headphone is also the ideal classical headphone, etc.
The idea that any specific headphone is better tailored to a specific genre is completely foreign here. A more important variable might be who mastered it instead of what genre. I'd suggest HF as a better place to solicit such input. Not being mean, but just saying how it is.
hello,
this :money:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_6VUs2VCk
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The Changstar consensus: The ideal jazz headphone is also the ideal rock headphone is also the ideal metal headphone is also the ideal country headphone is also the ideal classical headphone, etc.
The idea that any specific headphone is better tailored to a specific genre is completely foreign here. A more important variable might be who mastered it instead of what genre. I'd suggest HF as a better place to solicit such input. Not being mean, but just saying how it is.
Fair enough, I must admit though, on certain level, the idea of absolutes does appeal to me. One "ideal" headphone at every price point for every kind of music seems great. But at the same time some genres of music tend to be recorded and mastered in particular way (when they are carefully recorded and mastered), and thus tend to sound better on headphones which exhibit certain sonic characteristics. Or maybe i'm incorrect in thinking that way.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_6VUs2VCk
If that movie was about sports, baseball or something, it would have been way more watchable.
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The ideal Jazz headphone is jazzy.
It oozes so much Jazz that your feet move at the sound of music. It can be a number of headphones but it is that one headphone that makes you count "1, 2, 3, 4" when the music starts before you snap you fingers and whistle or dance away as if the world turned into Jazz.
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If that movie was about sports, baseball or something, it would have been way more watchable.
Is this movie was about competitive knitting and everything else was the same it would be as great a movie as it already is.
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Is this movie was about competitive knitting and everything else was the same it would be as great a movie as it already is.
I guess this particular form can be regurgitated into any content.
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The ideal Jazz headphone is jazzy.
It oozes so much Jazz that your feet move at the sound of music. It can be a number of headphones but it is that one headphone that makes you count "1, 2, 3, 4" when the music starts before you snap you fingers and whistle or dance away as if the world turned into Jazz.
nice