The lack of impact might be the thing that bothers me most, but I don't have the most electrostat experience compared to fellow pirates.
there's a certain effortlessness and openness that the STAX exhibit that very few headphones of other driver types exhibit, which is why I feel I love my STAX so much.
Yes, pretty much. The normal bias Sigma uses normal bias SR-Lambda drivers and the Sigma Pro uses SR-Lambda Signature drivers.
Did they just strap some lambda drivers in a different enclosure and put some damping around your ear though?
Heh, just realized I was writing some notes down with an Edifier pen before posting this. Does that make me a Stax fanboy? :PCommie!
Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either. They sound a little bit ethereal to me as well, but compared to the Sony MDR-SA5000, pretty much the only headphone I've heard that has a bit of the same "effortlessness" in the treble if you will, sounds much more ethereal to me than the stats, by a long shot. I don't wanna derail the thread and take it into a debate about that headphone though, so I'll shut up.there's a certain effortlessness and openness that the STAX exhibit that very few headphones of other driver types exhibit, which is why I feel I love my STAX so much.
I can totally understand this, I just don't like the notion this is somehow uber transparent, the last word in detail, the pinnacle of sound, or 'superior' to other alternatives. The most 'stat' ethereal sounding rig I've heard is a Sanders speaker rig which sounds absolutely unnatural but utterly seductive, engaging and intriguing to me. Very precise 3D images that are somehow hollow. Listening to it is as if Monet is painting musical soundscapes in the air around me. If I had the money and room I'd pick up a set. However, I wouldn't run around telling everyone who doesn't have Sanders speakers that their speakers are sh1t or technically 'wrong' like some Stax fascists do. The problem is I don't find real instruments to be effortless. They have weight, pluck, bang, snap, sibilance, shrieking, all sorts of stuff that seems to get lost a bit. To me, real music has a force and presence behind it. I once heard a Stax fan call that sort of sound dynamic driver "compression" lol.
Heh, just realized I was writing some notes down with an Edifier pen before posting this. Does that make me a Stax fanboy? :P
Hmm, seems like you could 3D print some cups for a pair of lambda drivers to make a clone of the Sigma for significantly less than the actual price of a sigma then... (writes down that idea for when I get a spare pair of lambda drivers)Yes, pretty much. The normal bias Sigma uses normal bias SR-Lambda drivers and the Sigma Pro uses SR-Lambda Signature drivers.
Did they just strap some lambda drivers in a different enclosure and put some damping around your ear though?
Dynamics all have a grain to them (varying degrees of course) that I find distracting, and that can't be helped with mods or EQ.
If you're serious about 3D printing Sigma cups, I think jaycalgary listed the measurements he took of his set when he made his own Sigma cups. There's a thread on HF somewhere.Whoa, someone has seriously already done it? :o
As for not highlighting poor recordings, you'll probably have to find a headphone with some recession in the lower treble. The SR-007 and Sigma come to mind as Stax headphones that are more forgiving of poorly mastered records.
Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either. They sound a little bit ethereal to me as well, but compared to the Sony MDR-SA5000, pretty much the only headphone I've heard that has a bit of the same "effortlessness" in the treble if you will, sounds much more ethereal to me than the stats, by a long shot.
Had a little of exp with 2 SR-009 rigs, 1 with a Cary Signature and the Woo tranny and another with the Woo amp. I really love the lower mids of the electric guitar in various rock/metal music and the weight that comes with the HD800 just can't be found on the 009 rigs I tried.
Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either.
Dynamics all have a grain to them (varying degrees of course) that I find distracting, and that can't be helped with mods or EQ.
I feel the same way. I've always wondered if this would be objectively confirmable or if it's an ostensibly irreversible bias ingrained within my pysche.
I'm not sure if my opinion of the SR-Omega being the most revealing transducer I've encountered is due to that actually being the case or due to its ability to resolve without any grain, etch, or other treble undesirables. I hope it's the former as I readily identified the HE60 as a notch below the HD 800 in resolving capability (although the HE60 "sounded" faster and cleaner).
I heard the 007Mk1 recently at the Seattle meet, but on the Cavalli Liquid Lightning (which also had a 009 connected to it), and the owner told me he had some very warm sounding tubes to try and "warm up" that 009, so I felt the 007 was a bit too warm sounding. Guess I should have asked him to let me try it with my solid state 212 amp instead. :D
There was another 009 at the meet as well, being driven by a KGSSHV and some expensive looking Oppo DAC, but I think pretty much everyone who heard it (including me) came away unimpressed. The KGSSHV sounded really warm, but not warm in a good way, warm as in the top end sounded rolled off and the whole experience was just "meh"; I honestly felt my 202/212 sounded just about as good versus the KGSSHV/009 combo, that's how bad it sounded. Can anyone else verify this, or could it have been something else that was wrong with the system, like an improperly built KGSSHV or something?
I remain curious what a well designed DHT SET amp (instead of the push-pull or DIY commercial hybrid/SS offerings) for electrostatic headphones could do. This is probably the only way to level the playing field. I still remember Frank Cooter's SET amp with the blue mercury PS tubes. Even though Frank was running SR507 (screwy FR), it was by far the most "involving" stat rig I had ever heard on the same league of n3rdling's Orpheus.
The KGSSHV sounded really warm, but not warm in a good way, warm as in the top end sounded rolled off [ . . . ] Can anyone else verify this, or could it have been something else that was wrong with the system, like an improperly built KGSSHV or something?I find these impressions pretty interesting. The KGSSHV I heard had excellent treble extension but surprisingly strident upper harmonics (e.g. violins could be a little painful to listen to), though it was fine with the SR-007Mk1. Generally speaking when some Stax enthusiasts speak of moving up the amplification ladder (top being the DIY-T2 then BHSE just below), they're gunning for better performance and extension in the extremes and very few belabor perceived benefits in the midrange. Maybe that's due to stats representing a capacitive load but I'm no expert on this.
In the end, I felt the electrostatic stuff was too niche, too screwball of a technology, too limited with good amp choices, too vintage (Senn Orpheus), too craptastic customer service (STAX) for me to stick with.Eh, I would be inclined to agree. Then there's some esoteric BS like parasitic charges and phantom imbalances that nobody else has to deal with which plague the broad range of electrostatic models. Just reading that SR-009 imbalance thread makes me mad -- those kind of issues have no place in a $3500+ product whose sheer purpose can be defeated by fate and chance.
Well we know who has had a DHT SET Estat amp circuit ready for assembly for the last few years, unfortunately he feels content to market the push-pull design of someone else due to the small volumes Stats represent, and the rather over zealous nature of a certain group of fanboys who like to smear competition they can't hang with using they amateur hobbyist DIY designs.The politics in the Stax market are absolutely confounding and will inhibit them from being any real threat to dynamic transducer types (besides the other reasons mentioned as well) for the vast majority of people. Of course this might not matter as Stax doesn't seem to be concerned about expanding their market size.
are their relatively large voltage requirements.
Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either.
Not at all, just citing some general comments u find on the interwebs.Dynamics all have a grain to them (varying degrees of course) that I find distracting, and that can't be helped with mods or EQ.
I feel the same way. I've always wondered if this would be objectively confirmable or if it's an ostensibly irreversible bias ingrained within my pysche.
I'm not sure if my opinion of the SR-Omega being the most revealing transducer I've encountered is due to that actually being the case or due to its ability to resolve without any grain, etch, or other treble undesirables. I hope it's the former as I readily identified the HE60 as a notch below the HD 800 in resolving capability (although the HE60 "sounded" faster and cleaner).
Agreed about the HE60. The Omegas are some of my favorite Stax and possibly some of the best mids in headphonedom. However I always feel the treble and bass lacking for my tastes. Not enough splash or sizzle, or bass punch and impact when called for. Despite the lovely mids, it sounds kind of laid back to me keeping me from rocking out.I heard the 007Mk1 recently at the Seattle meet, but on the Cavalli Liquid Lightning (which also had a 009 connected to it), and the owner told me he had some very warm sounding tubes to try and "warm up" that 009, so I felt the 007 was a bit too warm sounding. Guess I should have asked him to let me try it with my solid state 212 amp instead. :D
There was another 009 at the meet as well, being driven by a KGSSHV and some expensive looking Oppo DAC, but I think pretty much everyone who heard it (including me) came away unimpressed. The KGSSHV sounded really warm, but not warm in a good way, warm as in the top end sounded rolled off and the whole experience was just "meh"; I honestly felt my 202/212 sounded just about as good versus the KGSSHV/009 combo, that's how bad it sounded. Can anyone else verify this, or could it have been something else that was wrong with the system, like an improperly built KGSSHV or something?
I think I can. I feel pretty much the same way about the KGSSHV. Warm and meh sounding but better warm and meh than a 323 but very similar. Oppo is overrated in everything, headphones, transports, even bluray players. They were good back in the day when they were a feature set based bargain choice, but now they like to play in rarified audio/videophile air. Most decent DACs/transports are better than high end Oppos and both my my LG bluray drive on my PC and a $100 Pioneer Elite Bluray player I got from a swap meet rocked the Oppo 105 when I did a side by side. Don't believe the hype.
Liquid Lightning is a tube amp??I remain curious what a well designed DHT SET amp (instead of the push-pull or DIY commercial hybrid/SS offerings) for electrostatic headphones could do. This is probably the only way to level the playing field. I still remember Frank Cooter's SET amp with the blue mercury PS tubes. Even though Frank was running SR507 (screwy FR), it was by far the most "involving" stat rig I had ever heard on the same league of n3rdling's Orpheus.
Well we know who has had a DHT SET Estat amp circuit ready for assembly for the last few years, unfortunately he feels content to market the push-pull design of someone else due to the small volumes Stats represent, and the rather over zealous nature of a certain group of fanboys who like to smear competition they can't hang with using they amateur hobbyist DIY designs.
Despite the FR, the 507 is certainly an involving stat, that's for sure.
Oops, I didn't clarify...he didn't 3D print his sigma cups, he made them from chicken wire and some other stuff I think.Hmm, okay. I'm wondering if some 3D printed cups wouldn't actually be better than the material STAX used for the sigma! :)p3
Yeah, the treble isn't grain-free or smooth like the STAX, but it does have the effortlessness. Strangely enough, any songs without any vocals, or those with artificial voices (vocaloid) don't sound half bad, but vocals sound way too fake.Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either. They sound a little bit ethereal to me as well, but compared to the Sony MDR-SA5000, pretty much the only headphone I've heard that has a bit of the same "effortlessness" in the treble if you will, sounds much more ethereal to me than the stats, by a long shot.LOL, I think I understand what you talking about in reference to the SA-5000. Not the best quality treble, not as fast or smooth, but the effortless presentation is similar to STAX.
Alright, just wanted to make sure. :)Hmm, sorry if my writeup came off as making it sound like 'stats were the end-all things, because I don't think they are either.
Not at all, just citing some general comments u find on the interwebs.I heard the 007Mk1 recently at the Seattle meet, but on the Cavalli Liquid Lightning (which also had a 009 connected to it), and the owner told me he had some very warm sounding tubes to try and "warm up" that 009, so I felt the 007 was a bit too warm sounding. Guess I should have asked him to let me try it with my solid state 212 amp instead. :D
There was another 009 at the meet as well, being driven by a KGSSHV and some expensive looking Oppo DAC, but I think pretty much everyone who heard it (including me) came away unimpressed. The KGSSHV sounded really warm, but not warm in a good way, warm as in the top end sounded rolled off and the whole experience was just "meh"; I honestly felt my 202/212 sounded just about as good versus the KGSSHV/009 combo, that's how bad it sounded. Can anyone else verify this, or could it have been something else that was wrong with the system, like an improperly built KGSSHV or something?
I think I can. I feel pretty much the same way about the KGSSHV. Warm and meh sounding but better warm and meh than a 323 but very similar. Oppo is overrated in everything, headphones, transports, even bluray players. They were good back in the day when they were a feature set based bargain choice, but now they like to play in rarified audio/videophile air. Most decent DACs/transports are better than high end Oppos and both my my LG bluray drive on my PC and a $100 Pioneer Elite Bluray player I got from a swap meet rocked the Oppo 105 when I did a side by side. Don't believe the hype.
Liquid Lightning is a tube amp??
Hmm, I noticed a bit of harshness as well, but I'm not totally sure if it's the 009, KGSSHV, or the Oppo player. How much do KGSSHVs usually cost anyway? I think he said he spent ~$2000 on it and it looked like there was a pretty good case, so could it be possible some compromises were made inside? I thought they cost a little bit more than that...The KGSSHV sounded really warm, but not warm in a good way, warm as in the top end sounded rolled off [ . . . ] Can anyone else verify this, or could it have been something else that was wrong with the system, like an improperly built KGSSHV or something?I find these impressions pretty interesting. The KGSSHV I heard had excellent treble extension but surprisingly strident upper harmonics (e.g. violins could be a little painful to listen to), though it was fine with the SR-007Mk1. Generally speaking when some Stax enthusiasts speak of moving up the amplification ladder (top being the DIY-T2 then BHSE just below), they're gunning for better performance and extension in the extremes and very few belabor perceived benefits in the midrange. Maybe that's due to stats representing a capacitive load but I'm no expert on this.
With the DIY nature of the KGSSHV, I am a little curious if individual liberties in design from build-to-build (even beyond output stage) translate to different final performance outcomes. It would certainly do no favors for comparability if some of us were talking about McIntosh KGSSHVs and others Granny Smith KGSSHVs (or maybe some apple type everyone here hates).
the relative lack of 'stat talk on CS makes me think others quietly feel the same way.
I agree that stats will always be a niche within a niche
Oops, I didn't clarify...he didn't 3D print his sigma cups, he made them from chicken wire and some other stuff I think.Hmm, okay. I'm wondering if some 3D printed cups wouldn't actually be better than the material STAX used for the sigma! :)p3
From what I've gathered, the main difference in the Lambdas line (besides the cable) is the pads. I think the closer the drivers are to the ears, the better the low end extension and presence based on what I heard and seen. What are the differences in pad thickness and shape between them (Lambdas)?
the relative lack of 'stat talk on CS makes me think others quietly feel the same way.
I agree that stats will always be a niche within a niche
I think the relative lack of stats on this forum has more to do with your second point than anything else one might read into it. It all seems relatively proportional to the market share of dynamics, orthos and stats to me. Not to mention the sonic characteristics that some of us mentioned having issues with, so some went through the Stax phase and ended up leaving.
Since you brought up names, I can guarantee you won't get improved market share and product proliferation when one rabid group continues to slander competitors that aren't made by Justin or designed by fake 'Doctor' Gilmore, who apparently inspired all of Stax's amp designs, lol. It would also be refreshing for once to not see people parroting uncorrected lies, slander and hypocritical comments from some of those you mentioned who feel the need to mark their territory like dogs peeing on a tree because of petty ego problems. Don't ya think? I never said anything about Sachu and Alex so that's you bringing that up, not me. But I'm happy to leave it lay for sure.
My original point was about a DHT SET amp and that there are some very well know amp designers that have expressly stated they will never go to the trouble of making a stat amp largely because of said group and their disproportional influence over such a small segment of the market. IMHO, such environment does nothing to benefit the proliferation of stats if that's the concern.
I really don't think high voltage is too much of a problem. Yeah, you can't plug in a 009 to your iPhone but consider that every desktop amp in every house around the world could have been a stat amp for a stat phone if people wanted it to be. In those cases, someone choosing to put a box on their desk to listen to headphones is not worried about high voltage as an impediment. So I think it's a bit more complex than that like poor marketing, poor support, cost and other issues.
I have no plans to be like the middle aged fat slob type driving a Corvette in the left lane at 53mph. (Gawd, I hate those fuckers.)
It all seems relatively proportional to the market share of dynamics, orthos and stats to me.
I agree with Marv about the 009 being the clarity king. From the 717 it was really something to behold in that regard and it still sticks with me as the ultimate reference. I couldn't get over the lack of microdynamics and soundstage though. I could be very happy with that combination in a relaxed non-critical listening way. It lacked that musical engagement or realism that I ultimately desire. I am not sure the KGSS/KGSSHV could improve on those things enough over the 717 to make it a worthwhile investment over going to the BHSE/LL/Electra.
I know ship is a big 009 fan but he may have had to abandon it while working on the road. I think Tari still has/likes the 007 but uses the HP1 the most. Romy might have a couple dozen Stax buried in a closet somewhere?
Had a little of exp with 2 SR-009 rigs, 1 with a Cary Signature and the Woo tranny and another with the Woo amp.
I'm not sure if my opinion of the SR-Omega being the most revealing transducer I've encountered is due to that actually being the case or due to its ability to resolve without any grain, etch, or other treble undesirables. I hope it's the former as I readily identified the HE60 as a notch below the HD 800 in resolving capability (although the HE60 "sounded" faster and cleaner).
I also thought my HE60s and SR-307s had aight bass that lacked impact and extension, but I feel that my Omegas have super-duper bass all around. The Omega do have the largest transducer of any Stax ever made IIRC (~90mm diameter) so maybe that counts for something. I haven't compared them closely enough against the SR-009 though.
Yes, there's a certain weight or tactile feel the HD800 has that the STAX do not have. Not necessarily talking about bass impact, but rather tactility throughout the mids and the highs. This "etherealness" nonsense seems to be an issue which plagues STAX and not some of the other electrostatic headphones. The Orpheus and Jade had a certain tactile feel in from the mids on up which the STAX also did not possess.
BTW, I also felt the Orpheus and Jade were more resolving, better at extracting microdetail and especially better at microdynamic rendering, with the 009 sort of blacking out of dropping low level information. (Anax and I also directly compared BA/HD800 and T2DIY/009 - tonality, bass impact differences, overall presentation differences aside, the HD800 rig was better at microdetail extraction and microdynamic rendering, the 009 rig was less veiled and faster.) The 009 is still king of clarity.
In the end, I felt the electrostatic stuff was too niche, too screwball of a technology, too limited with good amp choices, too vintage (Senn Orpheus), too craptastic customer service (STAX) for me to stick with. If Senn had brought back the Orpheus, it would have been a different story for me.
It's a shame that the small size and cult-ish status of the Stax market lead a considerable proportion of outsiders to regard them as some sort of "holy grail."
But you never know. We didn't talk about DACs much until Anathallo started the "Not a lot of DAC talk thread in here". Now that DAC thread is the largest on this site. So maybe, just maybe 'tode had something in mind when he started this thread.
I am curious how many pirates own a stat rig and are actually using it?
With regard to other amps, hopefully the Vostok Sound electrostatic amps will find a few buyers once the final version is available. Based on all the "Stax Mafia" comments, maybe it's foolish to try to build, market, and sell a new electrostatic amp.
Also high on my list are the Jecklin Floats. Romy and I don't talk about them much publicly as we're sure to be put in straight jackets and locked up for heresy, but they are damned good!
I'm eager to learn of the factors contributing to etheriality
d)Microdynamics seem to be esp. affected and it sounds a little bit compressed in that regard.(probably my main issue with this sort of presentation)
TBH, I don't have much experience with stats but I have come across this 'ethereal' kind of sound a few times while tweaking my orthos.
The two factors which seem to be associated with this are
1) Rolled off sub-bass
e) Low level information/ resolution - This one is interesting because on one hand these headphones sound very clean and have great imaging/separation which gives the impression of increased resolution. On the other hand, they have trouble with microdynamics, timbre issues and a short decay which affects the overall realism of the presentation. I expect people with differing priorities to have different opinions regarding this.
My contention was that the bass(even excellent) tends to negative affect the cleanliness and instrument separation. The way I perceive it, the image of a musical instrument is composed mainly of two components - a sharply defined core which is mainly the higher frequencies and a more diffuse 'halo' around it which is the bass and harmonics. When we start shaving off on bass and harmonics, the images become cleaner and more defined and more separated from each other (almost floating freely ). It might sound great with some music and give an impression of increased resolution but I don't consider the effect natural. Too much of a good thing for me, personally.TBH, I don't have much experience with stats but I have come across this 'ethereal' kind of sound a few times while tweaking my orthos.I'm struggling to get my head around how sub bass roll off is going to play a part in a "ethereal" sound? On recordings with little to no sub bass is the ethereal quality lost?
The two factors which seem to be associated with this are
1) Rolled off sub-bass
Umm, I didn't say that.I was discussing a specific presentation of planar headphones which seems to have become the 'house sound' of stax lately.It seems that someone over at Stax headquarters decided that the hyperclean ethereal presentation was the correct one. Some of us just don't find that presentation natural.I actually don't doubt that a perfectly damped electrostat with good bass extension would in theory offer the 'pinnacle' of performance, its just that the Stax seems to have taken a wrong turn somewhere.e) Low level information/ resolution - This one is interesting because on one hand these headphones sound very clean and have great imaging/separation which gives the impression of increased resolution. On the other hand, they have trouble with microdynamics, timbre issues and a short decay which affects the overall realism of the presentation. I expect people with differing priorities to have different opinions regarding this.
Ummm yeah, you're right. I'm not sure how my priorities play into it, but I'm a long way from agreeing with stats "having trouble with micro dynamics", especially the high end stuff. Fed right, few headphones offer equal or better resolution.
TBH, I don't have much experience with stats but I have come across this 'ethereal' kind of sound a few times while tweaking my orthos.
The two factors which seem to be associated with this are
1) Rolled off sub-bass
2) Shorter decay than natural
There are some other anectodal evidences that the Staxens may be overdamped.
1) Some members mentioning the older Stax models sounding more natural which have a thicker diaphragm and which would be damped lesser given same amount of damping.
2) I have read reports of people removing the foam at the back of their stax stats and finding it to sound better.
I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound? Probably not very good. Err, correction, probably not at all.
I really don't think it's a matter of rolled off sub-bass. Most planars and stats extend very well to 20hz and beyond. Plus many dynamics that roll off objectively even more have more weight and natural presence. The fact that older stats and Stax sound more natural when they have heavier diaphragms speaks volumes to me. I still it's Force related to Mass. If you think about all the natural instruments in existence, none of them vibrate air molecules with the same speed and low mass as modern Stax. I find it an interesting discrepancy however misguided it may be.Its not just a matter of rolled of sub-bass but a combination of factors which also include a relative lack of harmonics and a shorter than natural decay.
I don't agree that just because stats have a lower mass, that they are capable of maintaining that speed/acceleration at all stages of driver motion.
I think what you're interpreting as short decay and sub-bass roll off actually isn't. If the speed/acceleration is there, which it is for stats, decay should be transparent to the recording material be reproduced. Technically it appears to be based on the CSDs showing them to be more ideal than others. However, listening just seems to indicate something is off, and this is true for the planar speakers too IME.
In this case, I think there needs to be established some sort of minimal 'F' point (Force) where mass and acceleration can provide the necessary impact to drive a certain volume of air molecules a certain speed. I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound? Probably not very good. Err, correction, probably not at all.Exactly, I am actually saying the same thing. It won't produce a sound because despite its supposed immense acceleration, its motion would be completely negated by the mechanical damping effect of air. Yup, this one's overdamped too!
I mean, if we make a driver out of photons with immense acceleration, how would that sound? Probably not very good. Err, correction, probably not at all.
Simple: position two pulsars on opposing sides of a nebula that's bisected by a solar sail, each equidistant and perpendicular to the sail's center. Modulate their respective rotational periods and you'll have a cosmic stat.
...
That's cheating, you added a mass driver with the solar sail. Fun idea though to potentially stave off an alien invasion, just need to add some Nicky Minaj to the mix. Truth be told, I actually like a few of her songs, but it's an acquired taste.
I think the biggest contributors to the "electrostatic sound" are the tiny excursion and the relative lack of damping on the backwave.
I don't agree they have an unnaturally short decay...the ideal decay is no decay. The decay lasts on the recording and should last no longer than that.
When you guys say the older Stax sound more natural because they have thicker diaphragms, which older Stax in particular?
So here is the question, could you imitate the sound of a 007/009 by overdamping an ortho and articually reducing decay.
I think the biggest contributors to the "electrostatic sound" are the tiny excursion and the relative lack of damping on the backwave.
I think the tiny excursion and the lack of damping on the backwave may contribute to low non-linear distortion.
I think the "ethereal" signature is proly somewhat a result of a characteristic depression in the upper midrange, which might also be somewhat rough relative to other TOTL cans using a different driver technology.
The upper midrange depression may also contribute to the dimensional flatness because of the subdued directional queues found in that frequency range.
The ethereality may be due to a number of factors and it should be noted that most people simply aren't used to stat-like presentation. Unless I go for a few weeks without listening to Stax I do not notice as much of a difference, likely because of conditioning.
A wormhole might still work for playing Led Zep with gravitational waves.
I don't agree with the notion that stats underachieve at microdynamics...at all. I think they actually excel in this area. I would have expected somebody to say that about their macrodynamics if anything.Its relative, the ethereal planar I was speaking about still had better microdynamics than a LCD-2. Question to you - Is their a difference in microdynamic rendering between your more ethereal sounding stats and the orpheus?
I'm also with ship about "sub bass roll off" not being what causes their sound. Many don't have sub bass roll off, and like he said they have the same sound even when there's no sub bass at the time on the recording.If the recording itself doesn't contain much bass then it itself contributes to the excessively clean sound of the stats. I am not getting the discrepancy here
I don't agree they have an unnaturally short decay...the ideal decay is no decay. The decay lasts on the recording and should last no longer than that.I was talking about the perceived decay of recorded instruments. An ideal transducer would leave that as its is, neither shortening or prolonging it. My experience with stats has been that they seem to be seem shorten that decay while the underdamped orthos seem to be prolong it.
When you guys say the older Stax sound more natural because they have thicker diaphragms, which older Stax in particular? It's also not entirely true that the newer stuff uses thinner diaphragms. It has varied up and down between about 1 and 2 microns from the original Lambda to the current stuff. Another wrench the throw into that argument for some ears: the Orpheus uses a 1 micron diaphragm, as thin as anything Stax has ever used.I previously left it out for the sake of simplicity, but their are of course more variables to the complex equations governing the motion of diaphragm than just its mass and the external damping. There are factors intrinsic to diaphragm such as its tension and elasticity which also affect how much would move.
I think the biggest contributors to the "electrostatic sound" are the tiny excursion and the relative lack of damping on the backwave.
I think the biggest contributors to the "electrostatic sound" are the tiny excursion and the relative lack of damping on the backwave.
I think the tiny excursion and the lack of damping on the backwave may contribute to low non-linear distortion.
I think the "ethereal" signature is proly somewhat a result of a characteristic depression in the upper midrange, which might also be somewhat rough relative to other TOTL cans using a different driver technology.
As far as the sub-bass response, more than a classic roll-off I think Stax cans in general exhibit a sub-bass drop relative to the upper bass. Sub-bass is definitively there, but below the upper bass and indeed below most of the midrange. The upper treble is also there, but also below the upper bass, midrange, and some portions of the lower treble.
This IMO translates into a sort of U-shapped (scooped) upper midrange, and a de-emphasised lower bass and treble. That is, to me, these cans are not w/o their characteristic coloration. They have their strengths of course.
I don't agree they have an unnaturally short decay...the ideal decay is no decay. The decay lasts on the recording and should last no longer than that.
Here you get into the question of monitoring equipment where the engineers reference is most likely a dynamic, especially for the bass. Even if the monitor is a filtered or servo'd high end sub you're still left with the room's resonance modes. The decay is short in comparison to the vast majority of the commonly used options and might not adequately compensate for the mix. If you're used to stats (i.e. they are your reference) and the recording you're listening to is binaural and mixed with something like the 4070, then you indeed get unparalleled performance.
When you guys say the older Stax sound more natural because they have thicker diaphragms, which older Stax in particular?
For me the revelation was a 2-3 micron DIY stat Frank had on loan from that head-fi maestro whose name escapes me.
So here is the question, could you imitate the sound of a 007/009 by overdamping an ortho and articually reducing decay.
It's all about balance and getting the best sound relative to the starting point of the stock headphone. An overdamped ortho sounds like crap to me, though I think there are a few DIYers who prefer it that way.
Perfect transparency is not knowing you are listening to speakers or headphones at all.
The low non linear distortion is pretty much due to the balanced drive and centered film. The field forces are equal between stators.
I kinda doubt the "electrostatic sound" is even FR related since you can instantly tell an electrostat apart from a dynamic even though different electrostatic headphones and speaker panels have different FRs. Maybe somebody with a good PEQ can apply the filters you suggest to a standard dynamic headphone to test your idea.
Planars are going to sound different from dynamics right off the bat just because the wavefront is drastically different. With orthos and stats the entire active area is radiating sound in a piston-like manner, and this is typically a pretty large surface area. Stats and orthos differ in their spacer thickness and damping. The spacer thickness is related to excursion, which is why orthos tend to have much more impact than stats. Orthos usually use much more damping in order to control the diaphragm and help linearize the FR, but doing so hurts the openness/soundstaging. I don't like orthos that use lots of damping for this reason...they sound too closed in and too much like headphones if that makes any sense. I don't like being aware of the driver right next to my ear as it distracts me. This is what I mean by "driver transparency" from time to time. Stats also have the advantage of better acoustic transparency between the diaphragm and the ear (thin, uniform open stator vs array of magnets and holsters), though the single ended orthos are now tops in this area. Single sided electrostats are possible, but I don't think practical...you'd have to find the sweet spot for spacer thickness without a drastic increase in distortion and I don't think anybody has been successful in doing so.
So here is the question, could you imitate the sound of a 007/009 by overdamping an ortho and articually reducing decay.
Its well known among modders that damping affects the sensitivity of a driver. The more you damp a driver, the less sensitive it becomes. The first generation Hifiman orthos employed a lot of damping and it was one of the reason for them being so challenging a load to drive (The other being their very low impedance). The later Hifiman have avoided damping and that contributes to them being easier to driver than the previous generation.
Could this also be the reason why power is important regardless of db attained during playback? Power is necessary to provide the acceleration needed to overcome over damping, thereby improving microdynamics and producing a more natural decay?