Topic: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least? (Read 5013 times)

rhythmdevils · « **on:** January 19, 2012, 06:52:55 PM »

I would describe "grain" as heard in headphones, as manifesting exclusively in the treble, and sounding like a lisp. Instruments like cymbals that should have a clean "sssss" sound have more of a "shhhhh" sound. It can sound like "pfffffft" instead of "pssssst". I could also see it described as sounding like mild distortion in the treble region. Instead of being smooth or liquid, there is texture that shouldn't be there. These descriptions are a bit exaggerated but you get the idea.

So what causes this "grainy" sound in the treble?

It seems like it could be caused by sharp ringing in the treble. But the HD800 is said to have some grain in the treble and they are squeeky clean. I also hear some grain in some of my orthos and I imagine they are pretty clean as well but I don't know. Anyone have any ideas? Could it actually be distortion?

Which headphones have the least and most grain?

I never thought about "grain" until I owned the Sextetts for a long time and started hearing it in their treble response. It's my only major complaint with the phone, or should I say, the only thing that actually bothers me. If they had cleaner, smoother, more liquid treble response I would have just stuck with them and called it a day. I think AKG was thinking the same thing when they planned the K340, and if it lived up to it's dream of being a Sextett with electrostat treble I would have called it a day with that phone.

I'm guessing (I haven't listened to them specifically with this in mind) that Electrostats have the least. I remember them having the most realistic, fast and smooth treble around.

Marvey · « **Reply #1 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:00:57 PM »

Grain = bump in 12-14kHz? Just pure speculation.

rhythmdevils · « **Reply #2 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:02:51 PM »

But a lot of Stax have quite a bit of treble and as far as I remember, don't have any grain.

Marvey · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:06:26 PM »

It could be the Lambdas (what you are probably talking about) have a dip around 12-14kHz relative to the areas around it. Pure conjecture.

If you look at the HD800 measurements, there is a bump at 14k. (slight ringing)
The Sextetts look to have two bumps from 12-14k. (razor of death)

Tubage really does help with grain though...

Questhate · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:19:57 PM »

Yeah, I've always thought of grain like how you describe it as well -- mild distortion in the treble region. Like the sound is an un-smooth, broken line.

This may be pure audiophile marketing BS, but I always thought one of the selling points of planar designs was that they are typically have low-distortion (less grainy) because of the diaphragm. The only orthos (T50RP and LCD-2) and the only Stax (Lambda SB) I've heard all had a very grain-less treble. It's interesting that some of your vintage orthos show some grain as well -- which throws that whole notion out the window.

Marvey · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »

No peakage from 12-14k. Lambda 404 Signature.

rhythmdevils · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:08:43 PM »

It could be that the vintage orthos don't extend terribly well and they roll off in stock naked form. Through specific damping I'm pushing the driver towards a flatter response with more treble and maybe I'm winding up with a slight peak towards the end of their treble capability. They might have a peak at this range, and then a recession later on (lack of air).

I could also just be getting super sensitive to it, but this gives me some ideas as to how to try to get rid of it.

RexAeterna · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2012, 10:50:40 AM »

i don't know to be exact on technical point to be honest.Could also not be just the headphone, but can take consideration of the amp as well sometimes, cause sometimes the dampening factor,slew-rate,transient response,distortion can affect how it controls the driver in a push-pull operation and how fast it can set it to rest without causing any form of driver resonances due to how the driver vibrates in the baffle when transferring electrical energy into acoustic energy. i can be wrong though. this is just a random guess on my part. maybe that can be part of the story cause i think lot of times high frequency response always requires good burst of power. i know lot of speakers tend to spike greatly in the ultra-sonic frequencies. planers and ribbons tend to spike a bit too after 20khz into the ultra-sonic territory.

i can imagine some of the vintage orthos capable reaching air with the right layering of the right material in the enclosure. just a guess though. only vintage ortho i had experience with was a slightly modded yamaha hp-1 i gotten as a private loaner to test out his orthos. can't remember the sound so i don't want to speculate and end up being very wrong on my part but do remember really liking them. i think my sextetts lp might has a slight graininess like you mention but haven't listened to them long time since i refurbished them with new wiring and solder joints but do remember them being bit brighter than my 240DF. i think my 240DF has very low distortion and quick on the top-end. one day i can loan it to you if you like. i be glad to. so far also the SA5000 i been listening to has really fast transients as well without sounding sibilant or any form of graininess so to speak of too when it comes to dynamic headphones. i do agree the fostex as well have very little to none distortion and have very good treble response is reason i like them. overall though, i have no idea on this mysterious graininess and what causes it. i just go by what i hear.

Marvey · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2012, 12:14:46 AM »

I do feel the smaller orthos have more air. The big ortho headphones - the size of those drivers (in the speaker world) would be considered midrange to low-treble drivers. In other words, they would require a super tweeter.

I need to pull up the SA5000 measurements I have buried somewhere. Would be interesting to see if there are peaks in the 12-14kHz region.

rhythmdevils · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2012, 12:27:50 AM »

I'm not sure I hear much in the way of peaks in the treble in my small driver orthos here, but I think I'm more sensitive to upper midrange weirdness than treble.

I should send something down to you Marv. I've been waiting to get them "fully resolved" but maybe that aint gonna happen!

Author Topic: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least? (Read 5013 times)

rhythmdevils

GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

Marvey

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

rhythmdevils

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

Marvey

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

Questhate

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

Marvey

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

rhythmdevils

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

RexAeterna

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

Marvey

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

rhythmdevils

Re: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least?

(adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({});

Author Topic: GRAIN - What is it? What causes it? And which headphones have the least? (Read 5013 times)