Topic: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in) (Read 2629 times)

omegakitty · « **on:** January 30, 2013, 09:11:44 PM »

I've been doing some listening tests with these borrowed HD800s while I still have a chance.

I found an interesting quote by Steve Hoffman and wanted to test what he said.

Quote (selected)

Are you sure you want to know? Might ruin it for you.

I've used this example many of times.

The SACD/CD of Creedence WILLY & THE POOR BOYS that I did with Kevin a few years ago for Acoustic Sounds/Analogue Productions has a great example that you can try at home.

If one put on FORTUNATE SON in the SACD/DSD layer and just listen to the intro of the song, concentrating on the echo trail after each drum thwack you will hear how far "back" into the mix the echo of each distinct drum hit goes. Memorize that sound. If you don't trust the resolving power of your speakers, use your headphones...

Now, switch to the CD layer, cut by Kevin and I on the same day with the same mastering. Listen to FORTUNATE SON again, concentrating on the each drum thwack in the intro. Notice how the reverb vanishes much faster and is not as intense? Loss of resolution.

I once told this to a guy and he thought I was totally full of ****. He actually went out and bought the disk. He listened and said that I purposely ADDED echo on the SACD layer to make this so (like Kevin and I dug an echo chamber at RTI that matched Wally Heider Studio just to do this..) :laugh:

Really, resolution loss is true. Not much we can do about it!

I made a DSD rip of the SACD (through PS3) and copied the redbook layer to FLAC via EAC. Listening tests were done via USB -> my DAC -> GS-X -> bal HD800. Cables were either Monoprice or Mogami.

ABX_comparator plugin was installed. And level matched between the DSD file and 16/44 FLAC. I did the test that Hoffman suggested using Fortunate Son. With the DSD layer sure enough one could hear the echo of the intro drum hits a bit longer than the 16/44. I was able to detect which file was which used the blind plugin. I repeated the test using my speakers and I failed the ABX, beyond just guessing.

Next up was cueing Fortunate Son up on the DCC vinyl (Pass phono stage going into the RCA input on the GS-X, DAC going into XLR) and the 16/44 FLAC. I had to digitally attenuate the FLAC file in Foobar2000 since the XLR output on my DAC is hotter than the single ended phono-stage. This could have lead to a resolution loss. But it was easier to flick between input 1 and 2 on the amp and not have to mess with the stepper on the amp. Again similar results to the first test, the vinyl version had a longer echo trail than the redbook file. Obviously I couldn't make this test true blind.

AstralStorm · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2013, 09:40:02 PM »

Seriously though, do not use the CD layer from the SACD, instead convert the DSD into LPCM in a controlled way, say, using the foobar2000 SACD plugin. There are many ways to screw up this conversion - the simplest is to use a filter with too gentle rolloff. This in my experience results exactly in what you perceived - loss of reverb/air just on the edge of perception. There are other ways to cheat as well.

The conversion is not a lossless operation. I'd convert to 88.2k/24bit via the foo_input_sacd plugin, then use e.g. SoX VHQ resampler to drop to 44.1k and foobar's 16-bit noise-shaped dither. Good luck ABXing those.

Anaxilus. · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »

I've been doing the same thing testing spdif implementations and CD transports recently using the Sheffield Labs Drum Mastering DXD. Impact, imaging, trailing decay, reverb and natural timbre are all easy to process once you know what to listen for. Just be careful with quick switching and listening/brain fatigue. One needs to learn to build an acoustic memory of cues and intervals to pinpoint so when switching you can process the difference clearly. It's really NOT, nor ever has been, about 'Goldenears'. It's about 'Golden Methodology'. That's what we really call science as opposed to slop built on the back of coat hanger articles.

omegakitty · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2013, 11:28:57 PM »

Quote from: AstralStorm on January 30, 2013, 09:40:02 PM

Seriously though, do not use the CD layer from the SACD, instead convert the DSD into LPCM in a controlled way, say, using the foobar2000 SACD plugin. There are many ways to screw up this conversion - the simplest is to use a filter with too gentle rolloff. This in my experience results exactly in what you perceived - loss of reverb/air just on the edge of perception. There are other ways to cheat as well.

There is no point. His mastering chain for DSD is exactly the same as redbook. That is to say the DSD off the Grimm ADC is simply converted to 16/44.

Anax I totally agree. I don't place my hearing above anyone else's. Training yourself what to listen for is the key. Having equipment that can resolve those differences helps, but you can make yourself a more critical listener even with crappy gear.

wiinippongamer · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2013, 11:40:15 PM »

Could you upload a short clip of the DSD intro? Interested in trying this myself.

omegakitty · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2013, 11:45:09 PM »

Quote from: wiinippongamer on January 30, 2013, 11:40:15 PM

Could you upload a short clip of the DSD intro? Interested in trying this myself.

You need a DSD authoring station (ie Pyramix) to edit DSD.

Here is the SACD in question, really not expensive and I promise the music is good ol' southern rock

http://www.amazon.com/Willy-Poor-Creedence-Clearwater-Revival/dp/B00006RY6W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359589542&sr=8-1&keywords=willy+and+the+poor+boys+sacd

Marvey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2013, 01:41:19 AM »

Sometimes the redbook layers are mastered differently. Yeah, they intentionally pull off kind of that crap. (I saw this with dual sided HD-DVD / DVD back in the day too.)

I need to experiment with SACD ISOs via conversion to LPCM, high-res and 44.1. Even then, my DAC handles higher sampling rates differently because the digital hash filters are pushed way way further out of the audio band with a gentler slope when used with hires input.

Author Topic: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in) (Read 2629 times)

omegakitty

Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

AstralStorm

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

Anaxilus.

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

omegakitty

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

wiinippongamer

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

omegakitty

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

Marvey

Re: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in)

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Author Topic: Blind listening test DSD vs Redbook (and not so blind vinyl throw in) (Read 2629 times)

omegakitty

omegakitty

wiinippongamer

omegakitty