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Author Topic: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?  (Read 3594 times)

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Anaxilus.

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 03:51:56 AM »

nwavguys blog also covers the 1/8 rule

Uh huh.  I personally like the 1/9th rule.  Oh wait, or was that the 1/7th rule.  Here, let's roll a pair of dice and see what I can pull out of my ass.  There's only one rule wrt that site, take everything in proper context rather than universals.  Relying on his 'rules' is like using WebMD to treat terminal cancer. But hey, it worked for Steve Jobs. 

I do like how Benchmark was used as a reference for 'electrical transparency' and helped make the O2 another standard in 'electrical transparency' for less than 1/10's the price of the Benchmark.  I hear they are so 'electrically transparent' that it was necessary to make a new Benchmark which was even more transparent than either of the already uber transparent devices that excel beyond audible human thresholds.  Obviously, the Benchmark was designed for bats as any discernible difference between the old benchmark, new benchmark and O2 comes down to placebo effect (personal expenditure + bigger chassis + sighted listening).  Based on nwavguy's 'rules' of electrical transparency, Benchmark is taking everyone for suckers and using Benchmark as a basis for designing a reference amplifier or DAC was misguided at best.  Either they are marketers of audiophile snake oil or have nary the concept of what true transparency is.  Thus the inherent premise of the O2 is false at worst and unfulfilled at best.  But hey, cool attempt from an armchair quarterback.
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AstralStorm

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 04:49:55 PM »

It's easy for makers of Benchmark (or anyone else) to disprove:
- Take 16 people (or so. 8 is minimal number to draw any conclusion I think.)
- Pick some hard to drive IEM/headphone.
- Pick a good set of tracks.
- Attach a transparent ABX box.
- Voltage match channels.
- Allow people to switch and pick out the reference.
- Minimum number of trials per track is 8 assuming binomial distribution. That gives at least 64 listens, 128 if 16 people.

Three guesses why nobody has done this... My personal favorite is that the differences are indeed miniscule and even a set of trained listeners will miss them.
The test is very sensitive, but the power is reduced in too many trials or too many people due to averaging effect. You could even try to do that in a long term trial test, but it'd go expensive - you'd have to produce two DACs that look identically on the outside, one being O2, the other being Benchmark, then send them to people to try to discern by ear which is which.

I'm sure that highly trained listeners could pick out O2 from Benchmark using a hard to drive multi-BA IEM, since O2 has 2 Ohm impedance and Benchmark has 0.2 Ohm. This will produce frequency response changes on the order of 1 dB.
Feel free to set that up at some meet, lots of fun.

My personal opinion is that even O2 is far overkill, except the output impedance.

1/foo rule is a sham though - the only headphone kinds where it might matter for the stated reasons (damping) are mostly undampened orthodynamics (like HE-500?) and electrostats (the latter excluded from O2). It is important for very low impedance woofers though, but these are no headphones.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:00:47 PM by AstralStorm »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 06:05:55 PM »

Yup, there is a lot of validity and soundness in your points. 
As the supporters of objective zealotry would say, see 'null hypothesis'.   facepalm   To which I say, see 'claim' and 'hypothesis' first.   :)p8   

You don't get to cite an ancient article about coat hangers and presume your claim about the Benchmark and O2 or even all properly functioning dacs and amps sound the same is automatically validated.  No wonder we've fallen behind in science, apparently many so-called 'objectivists' don't even know what it is.  It's really shocking to me the lack of scrutiny they apply to their own evidence.  Says a lot about wanting quick and easy validation.
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Cristello

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 03:17:48 AM »

I find the concept of trying to prove minor differences in-audible just plain stupid at worst and foolhardy at best...

The minimum dB level required to detect a volume level change is widely said to be .5 dB, correct? Well I don't mean to brag, but I can reliably detect differences as little as .2 dB on a bad day... This easily shows that we aren't testing audibility, so much as we are testing perception...

How do I know, you ask? It's Simple. I have "average" ears!
There is absolutely nothing special about the shape/size of my ear or canal. Several Audiologists have stated so!

The truth, as it exists to moi, is that just because someone else may not be able to perceive it doesn't mean you can't. And Vice-versa.
Therefore, if it is a measurable difference, it could be an audible difference...

(Granted, I don't subscribe to the idea that our ears are somehow able to hear things absent in the measurements. If you think you are, your measurement rig hasn't found it yet.)
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donunus

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 08:12:34 PM »

Measured shmeashured. Heard by a golden ear or not, in the end it all comes down to whether one hears the difference  or not hehehe. In sound there is really no real way to prove things other than the typical fistfight :D Now give me all the equipment you are talking about since I am the goldenest of all the goldenest of ears! I will decide who wins and when to return the associated equipment.
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wiinippongamer

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 08:50:50 PM »

AstralStorm, how many O2's have you measured to determine 2ohm output impedance?
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AstralStorm

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Re: Can X amp drive Y Headphones?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2012, 10:25:56 PM »

One, home build by another fan of tinkering. Sounds and measures correct as far as I can verify (I don't have that good analyzer).
It's actually specced at 0.5 Ohm at nwavguy's site, but e.g. Joker's measurements at Head-Fi of a JDS Labs one said 1.1 Ohm.
There might be differences due to variability in the volume control pot or resistors used.
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