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Author Topic: The Jazz Thread  (Read 14762 times)

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burnspbesq

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2012, 07:21:16 PM »

Very nicely done.  With Ron Carter and Al Foster.  Recorded live at the Vanguard, originally released on Blackhawk in 1986.  As near as I can tell from listening to it on MOG, Sunnyside did a great job on the reissue.

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Torpedo

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2012, 07:46:11 PM »

Phineas is among my very favorite players too. Now listening to this other gem of his


btw it sounds amazing on the LCD2

Tari, how do you like Oscar Peterson?
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dBel84

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 07:59:16 PM »

Just dug through my collection and it seems I have nothing from Phineas, will have to fix that soon. In the mean time listening to McCoy Tyner - rebirth from Sahara

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rhythmdevils

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 07:59:59 PM »

I'm not sure I agree with you Tari about "soul" in music, I don't think it's up to the listener to hear it though what you connect to emotionally is of course subjective because we all have different perspectives and will connect to different perspectives.  But there's tons of music that is technically brilliant but souless to me.  Putting soul into music is about putting yourself into the music and doesn't go hand in hand with complex musical structure.  Most music is not that honest or transparent in that way.  Most visual art isn't either.  For that matter, most people don't really show themselves openly or honestly.  And for me, more than musical complexity, it'si that soul, that openness and window to something real that makes art and music beautiful to me, not how fast someone's fingers are.  Sometimes technically brilliant music can be some of the least soulful because the intention behind it is arrogance rather than honesty. 
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Tari

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 08:26:21 PM »

I enjoy Tyner a lot as well.  My personal favorite of his is a solo album he did in memory of John Coltrane, Echoes of a Friend.  He can be a a bit less melodic and overuses certain intervals a bit - on a lot of his tracks he tries to impart a sort of eastern flavor, actually ends up replacing the classic blues scale with a more "exotic" sound with a lot of what I call "mandarin intervals." But I really dig his sound.


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As for Peterson, to me he is untouchable within his style.  He essentially took Tatum and excised most of the impossible glissandos (while still striding with the left no less - a feat pretty much only Tatum could accomplish), infused his playing with more of a bluesy influence, focused a bit more on harmonics, and reigned himself in when necessary.  (If you Listen to Ella and Louis for instance, that's Oscar playing piano - he holds himself back as he is of tertiary importance in the mix, but I remember hearing it and being astounded at what he could do even when constrained like that, it totally proved to me that he's not just a player who relies on dazzling technical brilliance to distract the listener from a lack of depth.)


Anyway, he played so many dates and with so many configurations that not all his albums and performances are created equal.  He's probably most well known for his songbooks (which were all the rage in the jazz world at the time, Ella kicked it off with her wildly popular songbooks in '56 and by '59 when Oscar started doing songbooks it was something every virtuoso musician and singer was being pressured to do) and Night Train.  My Personal favorites are probably his trio of albums at the Blue Note and his Exclusively for my Friends series.


Again, with Oscar, its dynamic, its swinging and bluesy and there are a whole lot of notes being played - he won't be everyone's favorite, his style will be too busy for those who prefer minimalism, and he goes pretty far off book (only in the right hand, he stays very much within the song's chordal patterns even while improvising if you pay attention) - but even those who don't enjoy listening to him have to admit his colossal impact on the jazz music world. 


There's a great series of interviews and duets he did with Andre Previn (conductor, arranger, and jazz musician extraordinaire) for the BBC that you can find on youtube - it's one of the most insightful things I've seen about the jazz process.  He is so very thoughtful, penetrating yet humble and a truly wonderful person, a complete gentleman.  When he tells the story of not touching the piano for two months when first hearing Tatum I completely get him - when he tells the story of a "prodigy" who could only play exactly in the style of others it also clicks.  He was the complete package.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 11:44:28 PM by Tari »
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Tari

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 08:48:18 PM »

I'm not sure I agree with you Tari about "soul" in music, I don't think it's up to the listener to hear it though what you connect to emotionally is of course subjective because we all have different perspectives and will connect to different perspectives.  But there's tons of music that is technically brilliant but souless to me.  Putting soul into music is about putting yourself into the music and doesn't go hand in hand with complex musical structure.  Most music is not that honest or transparent in that way.  Most visual art isn't either.  For that matter, most people don't really show themselves openly or honestly.  And for me, more than musical complexity, it'si that soul, that openness and window to something real that makes art and music beautiful to me, not how fast someone's fingers are.  Sometimes technically brilliant music can be some of the least soulful because the intention behind it is arrogance rather than honesty.


I guess this is what I'm trying to counteract - I think technical brilliance and soulfulness somehow being mutually exclusive is a bit of a misconception (to me) and oversimplification.  I was never trying to make the opposite point, that complexity makes soulfulness - I was saying simple/complex is ultimately irrelevant in that equation.


It very well could be (and I really don't want to sound at all arrogant here) that listeners with varying degrees of musical background can be emotionally affected differently by complex pieces.  For other listeners, music with simpler structure, more "singability", appeal on a more primal level - I haven't really thought about it, but that could be a piece of where the stereotype comes from.  One other thing I will say is that what we think of as "soul" is much easier conveyed through the human voice than through instruments, and (to me) easier conveyed through "real" instruments than electronic ones.


One point I was making is that the motivations and where the music is "coming from" can be disassociated from the emotions it evokes in the listener.  The composer, arranger, producer, musician, etc, can have horrible intentions or no intention at all and be out of their mind on the drug du jour yet it can still mean something to the listener.
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Ha- just thought, I'm not trying to come off as insufferable at all, but it's possible that's what the reader gets out of it - if so, who am I to tell them otherwise?  Maybe I am insufferable.
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Torpedo

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 09:12:02 PM »

Tari, just wanted to know your opinion on OP. For some reason many jazz knowledgeable people dismiss him. I regard him as highly as you seem to do, and consider him among those very few who can play with both hands. Funnily enough his playing on the Ella & Louis series caught my attention too. Simply brilliant. The Exclusively for my Friends series is also a highlight in my stash.

When people speak of technical brilliance and soulless music Steve Vai and Satriani come to mind. Also Pollini.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 09:12:29 PM »

Ahh, I knew I should have worded my last sentence more carefully but I got lazy.  I was not trying to say that they are mutually exclusive.  Simpler and less complex is certainly not more soulful.  God no.  I'm trying to say that they are unrelated though they are hopefully used together cohesively.  I'm unfortunately not that into jazz (though I'd like to be, I just can't really get that into it), but if I had a top 100 list of most soulful albums, John Coltrane's interstellar space would probably be on it and it's certainly complex.  I think there's something profound he's trying to get out in that album that has nothing to do with the complexity of the notes, it's something you can't even put a finger on, but you can feel.  There's lots of free jazz that doesn't have that "soul". 

Maybe I'm missing your original point, but all I'm trying to say is that I think music can definitely be soulless (that's kind of harsh, maybe lacking honesty is a better way of putting it), and while it is subjective to a point, I would say most music does not have much of the creator's soul in it in other words, it doesn't really communicate something truthful or real or deep about that person.  For example, most pop music that wasn't even written by the artist, and is a product designed to sell albums.  Or a lot of fast guitar music that is just masturbation.
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Tari

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 09:30:03 PM »

Torpedo, I think there are a few things at play.  One, an inexplicable shift towards minimalism as a "truer" art form, Peterson not being a "tortured" artist with any emotional or drug issues, and his upbeat style when "upbeat" jazz was considered past it's prime.  His mainstream success was probably also not great for critical acclaim from the puritans (so odd that a genre that was about not having strictures in many ways has dogmatic puritans), and as I've mentioned I think some think technical brilliance acts as a diversion to prevent the listener from realizing there isn't depth within the work.  I do not think this true of Peterson.  Other jazz pianists have consistently rated him as the "best" over the years, though not always their favorite to listen to.  I take the word of jazz critics who aren't well respected jazz musicians on the side very lightly myself.  Jazz can have a lot of the same hoighty toighty BS that much of the art and fashion world can be afflicted with.  Be arrogant or brash enough and you don't have to be good.
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RD, I think we're agreeing then to an extent- and I guess there would be a theoretical point where I'd almost objectively call something "soulless."  It's a line that I've rarely witnessed though as I tend to gravitate towards things I like and shy away from those I don't. Some of the bleached music that you hear in the supermarket I would personally call "soulless", but... I just don't think I would use the term absolutely, because if it connects to some people, a segment of the population, emotionally - I don't know, I just wouldn't personally use the term in an absolute objective sense in relation to just about any music.  But maybe that's just me and my musical/artistic equivalency talking.


Regarding free jazz, there's no refrain, no chorus, not necessarily anything to familiarize yourself with as it's different from moment to moment - something like that is much harder to have a connection with, but I'm sure it can be done.  I can enjoy "mild" free jazz, (some sort of rhythmic basis or maybe an understanding of key) but totally out there nihilist jazz I see as helpful for the same reason any experimentation can be - you can then definitively say "Well - I'm never doing that again."
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Questhate

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Re: The Jazz Thread
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 10:48:21 PM »

Good discussion here.

The concept of "soul" is definitely a huge point of contention in black music. I think much of it stems from the emphasis that African-American culture places on authenticity. From jazz, all the way through hip-hop, there's always an element of counter-culture and a deliberate posturing outside of mainstream culture. You must be demonstrably apart from what the squares in mainstream were doing. The performance of authenticity was just as, if not more important, than the music itself from a cultural context.

Education and classical training is representative of white culture, so technical proficiency typically gets associated with being "soul-less" in the ever-changing cultural construct of "soul".

With that said, I agree with Tari in that think most critics do take that sentiment too far and is generally a cop-out. I can see praising a less-proficient artist for his intangibles that transcend pure music theory, but to automatically discredit a technically-proficient player purely based on his technical brilliance is presumptuous and totally missing the point. The two are not mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 10:57:09 PM by Questhate »
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