A meaningful discussion on the LCD-3The names of the innocent and the guilty have been changed.SGT. CARTER:Bob, did you notice any muffle or lack of clarity at low/normal volumes w/ the stock LCD-3 at all on your setup?
BOB DYLAN: I can definitely hear what you mean. I found them to be one of the most complex headphones to read. I usually can just hear a headphone's "sound" right off the bat. But I had a hard time hearing the LCD-3. I could see wanting more upper mids and treble, but then I'd think that it also sounded good the way it was. I could see detail being more up front, but I also liked how subtle their detail portrayal was esp. in the midrange. They've got a lot there that they don't show you all at once.
I think from memory that my Mackie Monitors have more upper mids/treble in terms of dB, but at the same time, I felt that if the upper mids were much louder, they would jab at the ears more than the Mackies, as they seemed to have about equal "glare" if you will, or "ear drum impact" or something of that sort. Maybe despite how clean the upper mids are on the 3's, the very nature of headphones is that they have more ringing/resonance/longer decay than speakers and so maybe they need to be a few dB down to make up for it. But I haven't had my Mackies for reference for a few months; I wish I had them so I could listen to them and then the LCD-3's. If they were missing anything up top, it would be glaringly obvious.
I did feel like I could use more treble "air" (which is confounding considering the supposed upper treble spike) which made them sound kind of bland or dull.
It could have been my mood those couple of days; it wound up being a difficult week. I'll listen again when Leica brings them back.
My feeling now is that their strength is more in what they don’t do than what they do. In other words, they don't wow you with detail, an overwhelming sense of transparency or clarity, huge soundstage, airy treble, huge bass, none of the things from which phone will usually choose a few to focus on for the wow effect. But they also had fewer bothersome characteristics than any headphone I have listened to in recent memory. I'd like to compare them to the 007.
So I can understand people wanting more of any of those characteristics, but I do think it is quite admirable to have so few annoyances. And in that sense of "lacking a sound", I do think they are very neutral despite whatever deviation they might have from neutrality in terms of frequency response.
I might eat my words when I hear them again. That's just my feeling now. I'm waiting to listen to them again before posting these thoughts...
MIR COSMONAUT: Did you listen with TP mods?
BOB DYLAN: Both. Too much time passed between stock and TP modded to make a comparison though I think I preferred TP. Either way, I need to listen to them more like I said. I just thought I'd give you guys some impressions even if I haven't totally figured it out yet.
They are a strange beast. Even the HP1000 I can read pretty quickly. Just takes hearing enough different tracks and then I had a good sense of their "sound"
But maybe it's not the LCD3's, maybe I was just having my period last week.
MIR COSMONAUT: I think part of the reason they are hard to read is because th
ey commit errors of omission rather than commission – basically what you sort of said. They don’t do anything outright annoying. x2 on the lack of air. Despite the measured spike in the high treble, I didn’t hear much air at all.
I felt with the TP mods, the LCD3 was fairly neutral sounding but with low bass emphasis. Without TP, it just sounded too dull. I can see with the TP mods how some people could still find it a little bit too much in the treble with certain recordings. I also tried lifting up the shelf via EQ. But anything more than +2.5db just sounded too thin, etched, and glaring with that driver.
BOB DYLAN: That makes sense to me as a plausible explanation re omission rather than commission. But I do think not committing serious crimes against my ears is something to be praised even if you are slightly offended by whatever they leave out. It is rare to the point of almost not existing
Even the HP1000 has some glare or a bit of a hump in the upper midrange IMO, certain notes being louder than they should. I couldn't tolerate it on my rig. The HD800 did the same with treble when I heard them.
SGT. CARTER: On that note, I can say I would not listen to the HD800, even modded, for more than 15min w/ the Arete. Oh god the treble. That's a good combo to hear what people complain about. I'm not sure the phones are 100% to blame for that 'SS' sound. I'm curious how one 6SN7 translates over to the Peak's signature.
LEICA: LCD3 already sounding a <little> better...but Bob agreed to let me run by tomorrow night and get some proper TP inserted into the LCD3.
Right now, 2K seems crazee for the sound... Murky and congested in low mids? (They do look pretty cool.) They need brightness upstream if stock, IMO. The Luxman P-1u (warm amp) I borrowed from XXX is a fail with Audeze so far (will confirm with Benchmark through P-1u when I have it back).
Running through a (please don't laugh at me) bright Audio-gd Sparrow B and it is just not really doin' it. Electronic bass has some good impact/quantity/tone/extension though. It’s missing the "air" and transient response.
Ha! Just put my cheap "reverby" AKG K240 on that I use for later evening "non-fatiguing" listening...better. I will make myself go back to the LCD3 now. *sulks* Need Costco run fo' sho'.
MIR COSMONAUT: The funny thing is that your (Bob) comments are clear and make sense. Even at this point, I’m still not I not exactly sure what BaiduTom and BulgarianZero have said about the LCD3s, other than they are the “best” and “that the Dude said so.”
BOB DYLAN: We all have different priorities. My number one priority is to have as little glare/jabbing/stabbing/piercing upper midrange bump as possible. And my goal is to have the best sound possible in the meantime. But I'm willing to make some sacrifices that are different from what others are willing to sacrifice. I think detail/clarity is lower on my priority list than you guys, and is why you prefer the HD800. Makes sense to me. And it seems like in, spite of having different goals, we all hear somewhat similar things which is interesting.
FYI, my reference is my fairly cheap Mackie Monitors, which do it with ease. So when I say the HP1000 has some glare/fist bump, it's in reference to the Mackies. And IME on my meager rig of course. (ie I don't have a Melos) And actually it was the SR200/HP1k drivers I had.
MIR COSMONAUT: Bob – that is very well put. I for one don’t think
people hear that differently unless they have hearing damage. People do have different preferences.
CARTER, LEICA, and I are more willing to overlook errors of commission, i.e. HD800 (treble boost, glare, and grain) in order to get our detail and clarity fix. You’re OK losing a certain level of detail extraction to avoid any kind of pain. So how much is this worth to you again? $1945?
Good discussion – we should put into a synopsis on changstar
DEAN HOFFMAN: For me, it's not that I prefer either errors but not being able to resolve certain things is a FAIL to me. While errors of omission are easier to look over, I can't stand it if I am paying good money for something that resolves as well as iBuds. Again...it's not that I want a clarity fix or detail fix. I just expect a certain level of accuracy at a given price range....
Color is cheap...and should be so.
MIR COSMONAUT: -10db shelf smack at 1kHz. Forgiving and pleasant at most, but definitely not accurate.
BOB DYLAN: Really I just like whatever I think is gonna make me look sexy for the ladies. The zebra wood shower drain princess lea look is in right now according to my sources.
MIR COSMONAUT: You need a man-purse to go with that?
LEICA: Yep, to carry around a trans-portable brick. Da da da to CLAS to SR71B, da da da da. Looking forward to receiving my used HD800 in a few days!!!
MIR COSMONAUT: Damn. I better let the folks on the LCD-3 thread know that I just trashed my Ferrari in Japan.
SGT. CARTER: Six of those Ferrari's belong to Dr. House.
How about an official music video for Changstar? I was thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a173PjTdLdw&feature=related
