Slightly edited, removed unrelated discussion and added spaces for easier reading. Start at the bottom.

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maverickronin: I enjoy that we can disagree in a civilized manner over here.   
Today at 08:50:44 PM

dBel84: one thing I can say is that when i listen to new gear , it takes me all of 5 seconds to know if it is "right" , to tease out what is wrong takes me a hell of a lot longer
Today at 08:44:21 PM

maverickronin: Expectations can be formed from your own memories and memories can easily be confabulated.  The more similar two things are the more that "noise" will dominate in the end.
Today at 08:43:26 PM

maverickronin: It doesn't mean that subjective impressions are useless, but it does change what kind of subjective impressions I'll find credible.
Today at 08:41:45 PM

maverickronin: If you listen for different things you really will hear different things even though what you were listening to didn't change.
Today at 08:34:04 PM

dBel84: aaah but that is all part of the tuning process , we just become too focused on a particular concern and blur out the rest , until reason returns at least
Today at 08:30:20 PM

rhythmdevils: LOL!  I'm glad we have such a dedicated new mate to stand up to the forces of evil.  re placebo I'm gonig to have to rescind my comments because I remembered that I have been overly positive about some of my own mods, it's hard not to be.  Don can attest to some really excited emails at 2am...  Then the next day I realize that in fixing one problem there is now no bass below 50hz or whatever
Today at 08:27:10 PM

purrin: well you never know. Midichlorians could be true. Besides, Liam Neeson was the one who taught Yoda and Obi how to retain their consciousness after death.
Today at 08:19:13 PM

rhythmdevils: Not really talking about myself here, just saying that I'm not sure everyone is that affected by it.  There are a few people here I know aren't much
Today at 08:19:03 PM

maverickronin: Everyone knows that's not even Canon purrin...
Today at 08:18:15 PM

rhythmdevils: I just don't see it.  I mean thinking my SOHA sounded the same as a gorgeous SOHAII is just one example.  It was bigger, heavier, prettier, had more tubes, I read descriptions beforehand, liked the builder, knew he did good work.  I'm not saing I have great hearing or something, the SOHAII must have been better.  I heard a difference, but it wasn't anything big enough to even put a better/worse to.
Today at 08:16:30 PM

purrin: I just chalk it to the force. I simply have a high midichlorian count
Today at 08:06:03 PM

maverickronin: There's a lot more than just expectation bias at work and such mental pitfalls affect everyone.  This isn't meant to be a dig at anyone either.  We're all human and we all have brains built from basically the same blueprint and those brains all process information in pretty much the same way and take pretty much the same shortcuts to process information quicker.
Today at 08:03:58 PM

ocswing: Thanks Tari. It's not huge, and I noticed it when I look straight down. Looking up or just opening my jaw doesn't really do anything.
Today at 07:53:52 PM

dBel84: as much as I would like to believe that my impressions are not tainted by prior expectation, I know that I generally have some level of bias.
Today at 07:46:24 PM

DaveBSC: I have not really had issues with expectation bias either, especially since I've developed critical listening skills over the years. There have been many cases where my own purchases have been disappointments.
Today at 07:41:46 PM

dBel84: and perhaps I should read what I type before hitting return . I know most agreed with anax that audio design is both science and art. It always amazes me when people think that all it takes is linking various circuit topologies together. The subtle engineering decisions to allow a little "circuit freedom" or clamping down all followers , laying out circuit boards to keep traces as short as possible and minimal stray capacitance ..... , much that can only come from experience and "art" of design
Today at 07:39:10 PM

dBel84: I'm with Purrin here, was out and about check in on my phone and there is so much to good discussion to read I end up getting smacked for sitting on my phone.
Today at 07:32:15 PM

rhythmdevils: I see no correlation between what I want and what I experience.  And my experience often goes against many core audiophile beliefs.
Today at 07:23:20 PM

rhythmdevils: I honestly don't think I'm affected by placebo at all.  I might be more polite if someone told me something was awesome but that's abotu it IME
Today at 07:21:25 PM

maverickronin: Honestly though, I think most of the "sonic differences" people talk about aren't explained by measurements, engineering, or physics.  They're explained by psychology and neuroscience.
Today at 07:13:34 PM

maverickronin: What slew rate you needs depend on what you're driving.  If it's too low it can limit FR or induce a specific kind of high frequency distortion.  I don't have much experience with speaker amps so I couldn't tell you much unless you gave me some data to work with.
Today at 07:08:41 PM

maverickronin: A percentage isn't enough to tell you what something sounds like.  The energy can be distributed in many different ways.  The "by the numbers" approach is to make all the numbers so low that now matter how they're arranged it's below the audible spectrum.
Today at 07:04:43 PM

DaveBSC: How would you describe the sonic difference between a Class A Krell and Accuphase, purely by measurement results?
Today at 07:01:45 PM

DaveBSC: What does 0.03 % IMD sound like? How about a slew rate of 130 V/µsecond? Is that an amp that's warm or one that's clinical sounding?
Today at 07:00:38 PM

maverickronin: That said, I don't think a lot of the differences in amps or DACs that people talk about are actually real.
Today at 06:58:57 PM

maverickronin: Some basics would be different output impedances and different non-linear distortion spectra
Today at 06:55:58 PM

maverickronin: There's way more than just FR
Today at 06:54:24 PM

DaveBSC: So if an amp has a flat FR, which essentially all solid state amps do within the audible range, then they all sound identical? You can't be serious.
Today at 06:53:42 PM

maverickronin: When they're all the same to within the limits of human hearing
Today at 06:52:20 PM

DaveBSC: Which measurement would cause two different amps with two different circuits to sound identical to each other?
Today at 06:50:53 PM

DaveBSC: I don't think $40 for a remaster on CD is unreasonable at all. Look at some of the prices for sealed out of print DCC gold discs these days. You can be looking at $200+, and many of them aren't even that spectacular.
Today at 06:49:55 PM

maverickronin: Hehe.  I don't really like windows but linux is gonna have to stay in it's little VM sandbox until it magically starts running games..
Today at 06:38:55 PM

Tari: if it's sensitive to jaw position that means you didn't take the mold perfectly - that's why they have you use a bit block, as it moves when you open your jaw otherwise and loses the seal
Today at 06:35:38 PM

ocswing: Since the UERM is my first custom I'm finding it pretty sensitive to my jaw positio n. Normal?
Today at 05:16:50 PM

LFF: @Anax...you're right...my wording was off. I agree that our university system is great but I wish that same system was implemented earlier and as you mentioned....we could still improve.
Today at 03:22:02 PM

maverickronin: So you were only talking about the *process* of designing something Anax?
Today at 02:57:41 PM

Analixus: Yup, it is weird.  Three of my closest friends are college professors and what is striking how our pre university system lags by all intl benchmarks and appears in steady decline.  However, by the time university rolls around we leapfrog all the others and surpass them.  It's a tremendous shift that takes place which is stunning.  There is something right happening there, not sure what all of it is though.  Maybe we need a WMFS moment?  It still pays for the best and birghtest oversees to finish up in the US.  We could still improve though which is scary if you think about it.
Today at 02:32:32 PM

Analixus: I think we are all getting on the same page.  Thought it was clear but that's what I was getting at.  Actually Luis, what you are talking about is quite different.  That's rote response.  The intuitive process is a quick, sub conscious critical analysis to resolve a problem or process.  That's different than regurgitation.  For example, I give you a set of Legos and say make this picture of a Lego house.  You have to fill in the blanks using internalized knowledge.  The school system, via Rote, gives you a template and steps 1-20 how how to do it.  Intuition requires you form your template w/o external assistance or frameworks.
Today at 02:28:54 PM

maverickronin: @LFF, the sad part is that we still seem to do it the best here in the US.  Other countries destroy us with their student's test scores but they're closing the tech gap a lot slower than you'd expect because many other places encourage independent thought even *less*.
Today at 02:27:14 PM

maverickronin: I found that when picture I was looking for an appropriate pic to make an "Equivocation" demotivator.  AFIK it's real  [link]
Today at 02:19:56 PM

LFF: Manifesting knowledge that is intuition because you know the solution to a problem without conscious thought is exactly what's wrong with the schooling system. Independent thought and novel ideas are seldom promoted or encouraged.
Today at 02:18:47 PM

maverickronin: Crafting something which creates an emotional response isn't the same as the process of internalizing knowledge until it becomes part of your subconscious and manifests as intuition because you know the solution to a problem without conscious thought.
Today at 02:15:51 PM

maverickronin: Also I've just noticed we've been equivocating definitions of art.  [link]  The kind of "art" I defined earlier isn't the "art" of finely honed intuition that lets you skip past a lot of errors in the "trial and error" phase of design.
Today at 02:12:18 PM

wiinippongamer: I fall alot for it too don't take me wrong, but blind listening is a must in that case
Today at 02:10:03 PM

wiinippongamer: if 2 amps would measure almost exactly the same and you volume match them but they sound slightly different I'd call that placebo
Today at 02:07:55 PM

ocswing: From what I saw he was talking about the aspect of engineering them. I could be wrong too, but this is what happens when we argue over what someone else said lol
Today at 02:06:28 PM

LFF: The way I see it, well engineered products always have a bit of art and science within them. Think about it like a diamond...certain headphones, amps, dacs are just like diamonds in the rough and they never get past that stage. Some are polished up at a mediocre quality. However, some are handled by a team of master craftsmen who not only pick it out, but chose which cut would suit it best and proceed to cut it down to the best and finest detail. It's up to us to then get that awesome diamond and place it in the best light to allow it to shine properly with all it's beauty.
Today at 02:06:17 PM

maverickronin: Sorry for all the mess if that's the case
Today at 02:04:27 PM

maverickronin: Maybe I misunderstood him then?  I read it as saying the amp or DAC itself was art.
Today at 02:03:57 PM

ocswing: And Anax's first point was there is an art to it, which you first disagreed with, but have now conceded. Now you're trying to go on from there to say it's irrelevant. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but there is an art to it beyond just the final product.
Today at 02:01:58 PM

ocswing: Talking about judging the final product wasn't even brought up in the art discussion. It was in reference to the value of the person's work.
Today at 02:00:44 PM

ocswing: From what I've seen that objective "standard" is pretty loose. We have a couple measurements and plenty of equipment that measures flat but sounds slightly different.
Today at 01:59:40 PM

maverickronin: There's a pretty clear and objective standard to judging DACs and amps (not that many people around here agree with it...) so talking about the 'art' of the design is irrelevant to judging the design.
Today at 01:57:04 PM

ocswing: Maverick: I just don't see what the point of that statement is. We understand that it's irrelevant to most people, but that's what Anax is saying. People don't understand there is an art to the process and think that a dac/amp is easy to make where it's perfect.
Today at 01:55:41 PM

wiinippongamer: The SR-009 would probably do that
Today at 01:54:22 PM

maverickronin: I know there is an art to the *process* but the process is irrelevant to most people.
Today at 01:53:44 PM

ocswing: And that's to get to an end result, whether that be a flat response with no distortion, a coloration, an unusual way to hang a suspension bridge, or just doing it with less money/materials than before.
Today at 01:53:24 PM

maverickronin: We're obsessed hobbyists who learn the details because we weren't satisfied with what we had beforehand.  Mos people who were more easily satisfied just bought something and like it well enough.  I'd like to be able to go back to that and just get the result I want without all the hassle.
Today at 01:52:43 PM

ocswing: But there is definitely an art of engineering in applying knowledge in a specific way.
Today at 01:52:32 PM

ocswing: Art can definitely be a final product.
Today at 01:51:32 PM

maverickronin: @ocswing, for the designer yes, but most of us are end users.
Today at 01:50:11 PM

maverickronin: I think most people care more about the final outcome though.  I like knowing how things work but I probably wouldn't care if that knowledge didn't have some sort of practical application.
Today at 01:47:33 PM

ocswing: I'd say that's an unnecessary dichotomy. For the engineer the process and end result are tied together.
Today at 01:46:52 PM

rhythmdevils: But, designing audio gear is different from printing a photograph in that the print is part of communicating the intent of the image.  So I guess printing is more like the recording process.
Today at 01:46:01 PM

maverickronin: Also, I'd say there can be an art to the *process* but there doesn't have to be an art to the final product itself.  You could do something elegantly and simply or the design could be 'ugly' and more complicated than necessary.
Today at 01:45:13 PM< br />
rhythmdevils: Not necessarily.  Amps aren't perfect either.
Today at 01:43:51 PM

wiinippongamer: probably a pleasant one
Today at 01:43:27 PM

wiinippongamer: That "art" as you call it on an amplifier's design process would be just coloration
Today at 01:42:57 PM

rhythmdevils: Yeah it's the very flawed nature of the devices that requires artistic vision.  But it seems like the perfect transducer wouldn't requre as much
Today at 01:42:48 PM

maverickronin: There's definitely and art to designing headphones.  IMO all headphone listening is so inherently colored that tradeoffs will always necessary so balancing them has a subjective component.
Today at 01:41:21 PM

rhythmdevils: And I guess as our tools for measurement get better, there is less need for this creative vision because you can simply measure certain aspects.  Like a headphone with low distorion, flat FR and clean decay will probably sound pretty good I guess.
Today at 01:41:12 PM

ocswing: There is definitely art in engineering, regardless of what's being made.
Today at 01:40:10 PM

rhythmdevils: Though there is still more creative freedom involved in printing a photograph.  But it's similar
Today at 01:39:42 PM

rhythmdevils: I don't think it's just recreating, because since our tools and methods are limited, I think there is a creative vision required to imagine what something should sound like when you hear problems.  Working towards a vision you have of what something should be like is pretty close to the artistic process.  But it isn't quite the same, because you're re-creating something.  I'd say building amps and phones might be akin to printing a photograph.
Today at 01:38:54 PM

maverickronin: Art is about how something stimulates the mind and conveys some sort of feeling or emotion.  Music does that.  The process of creating and playing music as well as putting the finishing touches on it for distribution and recreation like what LFF does is artistic.  To me, amps and DACs are just tools.  There are clear goals to achieve and clear standards to judge them by.
Today at 01:38:04 PM

Analixus: In my definition there is an intuitive art based on knowledge to everything. In yours it's something that hangs on a wall.
Today at 01:27:52 PM

Analixus: NwAVGuy's bridges remind me more of [link]
Today at 01:25:53 PM

Kunlun: Ha ha, wow, ronin.
Today at 01:10:51 PM

maverickronin: Nope. Couldn't disagree more.  DACs and amps are a lot different from mastering music.  Art is inherent to creating music but DACs and amps only *re*-create music.  LFF is painting a picture when he remasters things.  Somebody like NwAvGuy is just building a bridge when he designs a DAC or amp.  The only art involved in building a bridge is how cool looking you can make it while staying on budget and having it not collapse under the load it's supposed to support.  This [link] vs. [link]
Today at 01:04:22 PM

Analixus: Bingo, I feel the same way about how people talk about DACs and Amps.  It's the intuitive aspect of years of building knowledge and experience via applied science that sums the 'Art' aspect of engineering.  Just because some random schmoe shows up w/ a degree showing he can use a TI-89 doesn't mean he has the universe figured out.  I think the mistake also comes frmo those that equate the intuitive application of knowledge and science to random guessing.
Today at 12:41:06 PM

LFF: $40 is the lowest I would go for a hobbyist. Depending on the amount of work, it ranges from $40 to $100 per CD. $100 is what a mastering house charges just to burn your CD btw! There is a lot of time, effort and special knowledge needed to properly r emaster something. It's a science and art. That's one of the reasons I dislike certain engineers comparing themselves to me. Just because you can solve an equation or an amp doesn't mean you have the right tools, skill set and pair of ears to properly restore, master or remaster a song.
Today at 12:33:11 PM