It's actually got a decent DAC / lineout. I didn't care for the built-in headamp though. That part seemed like an afterthought.

Of course the question is whether those that have heard the HD800 have actually heard the HD800.  I'd put that number at about 20% IME.  Only the 009 is as fickle wrt both synergy (not coloration) and scaling from upstream gear.  People say the HE6 is another but I have yet to have that magical HE6 experience no matter what I seem to plug into.   

.  To this day no ToTL phone I've heard hit's harder w/more impact than my HD800 including the LCDs and 009/007 (have not heard the TakeT).  Both are cleaner rendering the lows for texture and detail but the 800 hits harder (punch/impact, not wobbly slam as in car woofer) which is one reason it's still my number one so I know how much bass the HD800 should produce. 

I'd expect anyone w/ a Senheiser that has a wonky impedance curve to understand synergy once they plug it into the right amp versus the wrong one

Nah, that's that ridiculous tube DAC in the front end.  You should separate your ODAC from the O2 so you can properly AB stuff.  The BA has more clarity than the O2 (depending on the tubes selected).  I'd assume someone using a tube DAC would not have transparency as their highest priority. 

I think 'synergy' as relates to the HD800 is being able to drive it w/ a capable and fully balanced signature in a dynamic environment that involves actual playback of music.  Not something that makes it sound thin, bass light like many SS amps like the Benchmark.

To this day no ToTL phone I've heard hit's harder w/more impact than my HD800 including the LCDs and 009/007 (have not heard the TakeT).  Both are cleaner rendering the lows for texture and detail but the 800 hits harder (punch/impact, not wobbly slam as in car woofer) which is one reason it's still my number one so I know how much bass the HD800 should produce.

It should produce exactly what you see on the FR graphs relative to the LCD2/3 and 007/009.  Anything less, your amp is wrong, simple.   'Taking the edge off' should also measure flat in that there is no SS digital glare or etch accentuating what the HD800 al ready does

I know others like the Skylab school might prefer their Lebenesque syrupy coloration but me and Marv have our standards for basic technical proficiency.  So we aren't exactly the typical euphonic tube listeners.

WRT speed, dynamics and clarity?  My Super7 beats the BHA-1 and Dynahi (both very good SS amps).  'Nuff said for me.

I'd expect anyone w/ a Senheiser that has a wonky impedance curve to understand synergy once they plug it into the right amp versus the wrong one.  The HD800 is probably more susceptible because ti is inherently brighter compared to a HD650 which is darker.  Treble tilt w/ light bass is much more annoying and easier to perceive than the dark, warm Sennheiser/LCD3 veil.   

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

Nah, that's that ridiculous tube DAC in the front end.  You should separate your ODAC from the O2 so you can properly AB stuff.  The BA has more clarity than the O2 (depending on the tubes selected).  I'd assume someone using a tube DAC would not have transparency as their highest priority. 

It doesn't really prove much but I went out of my way to try and be impressed by it and I wasn't.

Tell me about it.  I often had my worst experiences that way.  Not they weren't real, they were.  Burson, Violectric, Phonitor, Leben, Audio GD, LCD2 r.1, LCD3, HE6 to name a few disappointments.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

I think 'synergy' as relates to the HD800 is being able to drive it w/ a capable and fully balanced signature in a dynamic environment that involves actual playback of music.  Not something that makes it sound thin, bass light like many SS amps like the Benchmark.

You're putting yourself up against all kinds of established electro-physics there.  You might crank it some more if the amps takes the edge of that 6k ridge so it stops stabbing you in the eardrum. 

Not sure how, but then again if saying two amps that measure flat and have distortion below 'accepted' thresholds might sound different is already going against the theory of the gravitational constant, then perhaps. 

Uh no, cranking it up makes the ridge worse IME.  The overall equal loudness contour might improve but the absolute magnitude is still larger since it's simply louder.  Beside volume matching amps removes that concern.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

To this day no ToTL phone I've heard hit's harder w/more impact than my HD800 including the LCDs and 009/007 (have not heard the TakeT).  Both are cleaner rendering the lows for texture and detail but the 800 hits harder (punch/impact, not wobbly slam as in car woofer) which is one reason it's still my number one so I know how much bass the HD800 should produce.

..selection of music.  The HD800 has mid an upper bass focus.  It certainly punches hard but it doesn't have much rumble.  Not that they don't have their own problems but the HE-6 and LCD-3 smoke it in skull massaging rumble.  If they fit you right, even a pair of lambdas wastes it there.  If something is tuned too low and the treble is keeping your max volume down then  stuff can occasionally fall right off the edge of audibility with the HD800.

I've always liked bass extension so when I think of a headphone having good bass I just think of it going deep and tight.

Yup, music selection.  But most music has it's bass in the mid/upper bass any way.  Unless one is a dubstep junky, that extra low bass extension doesn't come in handy as much.  I do enjoy the extra kick drum resolution from a good planar.

So you agree w/ my assessment of punch versus rumble.  We'll disagree on our hearing of the HD800s under ideal conditions.  LCDs yes but no Hifiman has ever given me any sort of skull crushing rumble.  I quite prefer Massive Attack on my HD800 over the Hifimen or Stax except maybe a 507.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

It should produce exactly what you see on the FR graphs relative to the LCD2/3 and 007/009.  Anything less, your amp is wrong, simple.   'Taking the edge off' should also measure flat in that there is no SS digital glare or etch accentuating what the HD800 already does

What frequency are you level matching those graphs at? 

I believe most of FR graphs around are taken at 85-90dB.  Besides, we've played w/ volume matching and effects on FR t the mic, irrelevant from the graphs point of view.  Not far off from what I might normally listen at to AB gear for relatively short durations (around 75-90 depending on time of day and freshness of ears).  Most gear I've ever heard simply doesn't have that 'live'dynamic sound at normal volumes like you'd get from a live instrument.  Then again, live instruments aren't quiet.  You can't play a Piano, trumpet, violin properly at 60dB.

Anyway my theory about 'taking the edge off' is some combination of a lower damping factor lowering the resonant frequency (gonna have to try that myself why it's quiet enough around here to take some measurements) and the extra distortion products keeping it from being spotlit.

One of my many plans that I never get around to is to make a DSP that lets you twiddle knobs and inject various kinds of distortion into a signal.  Or at least a command line program that will do that kind of thing to a WAV file.

You really think something like 1.5 ohms output Z is really making a difference w/ the HD800's 300 ohms (nvm, I see this below). 

I'll wait to hear or see evidence of distortion making one of the most resolving headphones on the planet sound better.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

I know others like the Skylab school might prefer their Lebenesque syrupy coloration but me and Marv have our standards for basic technical proficiency.  So we aren't exactly the typical euphonic tube listeners.

I liked that kinda thing when I first heard it.  It got old eventually though.  I still think tubes are pretty damn cool though.  Finding something that actually does something useful (for the sound) with them so it doesn't feel like I'm just paying for looks and isn't amazingly expensive is pretty hard though.

I think that when my environment changes so that I can use open 'phones more often I'll get a pair of the original SR Lambdas and build my own amp for them.  I've wanted a pair of those for a while and tubes aren't out of place at all in those kinds of circuits.

Unfortunately, as awful as value can be for performance in the dynamic amp world, I think it's even worse in the Stax world.  I can only think of 3-4 amps worthy of the 009's ability compa red to maybe 6-7 for the HD800 and most of those cost twice as much as their dynamic counterparts.  I think the price differential is simply a reflection of the niche market and lack of sufficient economies of scale and competition.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

WRT speed, dynamics and clarity?  My Super7 beats the BHA-1 and Dynahi (both very good SS amps).  'Nuff said for me.

Is that a Gilmore design you like? 

Yes, I think the Dynahi is a fine SS amp.  I do like his redux of the T2 more than the BHSE however.  I could never see myself listening to Massive Attack, Prodigy or Godsmack on a BHSE.  No huevos.  Acoustic or classical would be more ideal.

Quote from: Analixus on October 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM

I'd expect anyone w/ a Senheiser that has a wonky impedance curve to understand synergy once they plug it into the right amp versus the wrong one.  The HD800 is probably more susceptible because ti is inherently brighter compared to a HD650 which is darker.  Treble tilt w/ light bass is much more annoying and easier to perceive than the dark, warm Sennheiser/LCD3 veil.   

OTOH  Zout has pretty much no correlation to what you and Marv say is good for the HD800.  UHA6: .5 good,  O2: .5 bad  Benchmark: ~.01: bad, S7: 1.5 good, BA: 10-ish I think? good, etc, etc.  It's that extra stuff I don't get.  The first three even measure pretty damn similarly.  If the numbers on Leckerton's site are real I'd be flabbergasted if anyone was even able to ABX them with the HD800 as long as the volume was kept low enough that the UHA6 was kept in it's most linear zone.

That's exactly what puzzles us as well, so we investigate.  There's something else going on.  Suffice to say, I have two Super7s ripped apart volume matched (max gain using PWD at 60/100) doing some cool stuff to find where resolution might be residing.  I'll see if anything I learn can be transferred over to the O2 and maybe fill in that void we are looking into.  I'm sure quite a few know a few places where I'm looking.