CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:20:28 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7

Author Topic: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.  (Read 11857 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Questhate

  • Stops to get gas, buys some stax.
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +83/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 916
  • Banned for putting ice cubes in fine Scotch
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2012, 03:28:59 AM »


It's nothing as blatant as that.  It's just a little bit of extra second harmonic in the right place can sound like harmonics that actually belong there.

I have an idea for a listening test that could be done to see if an amp is adding or subtracting something from the signal.

Take an amp you like, such as the S7 or BA, and wire it's output in parallel with a pair of headphones and the input of an amp that measures flat, has minimal distortion, very low Zout, etc like the O2.  Then listen to the output of the second amp with another pair of the same model of headphone that is in parallel with its input. 

If the second amp fed with that input sounds the same as the first amp by itself then the second amp must be transparent to it input.  If the second amp doesn't sound the same then it must adding/subtracting something on its own.  If they sound different by themselves when fed with the same source and the second amp is transparent to its input then the first amp must not be.

That not a perfect protocol (even if it's done blind) but I think adding the second pair of 'phones in parallel would get close enough to simulating the load on the first amp when used normally considering what it's parallel with should be pretty high impedance and not reactive at audio frequencies.  The O2's Zin is 10K by default which would bring the HD800's nominal impedance down by about 3%.  Probably not audible.  Swapping the O2's input resistors for 100k would make only .03% lower.


That's pretty ingenious, actually. I'd love to give this a shot just for shits and giggles if I can figure out a way to steal CEE TEE's HD800.

I don't understand the RMAA testing protocols and its implications enough to have a qualified opinion on the matter. But, i was one of the people championing the O2 when the design was released, and wanted badly to make it my endgame amp. NwAvGuy's position resonated with me, and his grounding in science made a lot of sense to me. Why rely on audio voodoo when you have decades of sound science? I got in on the first group buy on DIYaudio, taught myself how to solder, etc. and was fully ready to quit this hobby.

But almost immediately I was underwhelmed with the final product. I tried to convince myself that this is true transparency and that my ears must be wrong, I must prefer colored sound, I'm just not used to neutrality, etc. Obviously, I wasn't vocal about my disappointment back then when the O2 was the FOTM. Plus, I've never been as vocal about my listening impressions as most on this site anyway.

I was going through old PMs a few weeks ago, and I ran across listening impressions I sent to a buddy on HF before I even registered on this site -- very clean, but grainy and lacks dynamics. I later found out that the "grainy" that I described was a phenomenon referred to as "digital glare" here. Randomly, a person at the Bay Area meet also noticed the amp added some "glare" to the sound that wasn't there.

I'm open to the fact that I may prefer an colored sound. I'm open to the fact that perhaps I like reverb or distortion that the S7 provides. But I'm also open to the fact that perhaps just maybe science doesn't fully explain the totality of our experience yet (and please don't patronize me with pop psychology explanations -- I was a psych major in undergrad so I'm well aware of the effects of bias and unreliability of perception).

What extrabigmehdi doesn't understand is that we have lots of intelligent people on this site who are well-versed on both sides of this argument. I love that we can share ideas without smug or condescending tones (ie. "you're just susceptible to placebo", etc.), and no one fully dismisses any possible explanation, even if its unlikely (as a true student of science should). We all fall onto different places on the spectrum based upon our personal experience, but I'm sure most of us would adopt a new stance if faced with compelling evidence the other way (even Mav gave the BA vs. O2 battle a fair shot and preferred the O2).
Logged

Anaxilus.

  • Dikus Beligerantis Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 577
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2012, 03:50:37 AM »

@ Mav

I agree w/ pretty much w/ everything you've said.  I'll try to arrange something like that when I can, a bit busy.  I'm currently in week 3 of 4 into capacitor rolling atm.  Then I need to write something up for the CX985 and Portaphile 627.  Not to mention building my new Intel 820/2011 w/ 64GB RAM and setting up a new office.  I also need to pull a couple of engines (4AFE  and EJ25).  Then Craig is dropping off his new SS for us to sample to make sure it doesn't sound like shit.  Oh yeah, work too.   ::) 

I don't think you have tins ears.  More likely music preference and phone selection if anything at all.  The HD800 is no joke.  Even my HE5, HP1000 and UERM can't keep up w/ it anymore for A/B duties.  Probably the best thing to do to avoid stupid, ridiculous expenditures is avoiding the HD800 and 009 altogether or at least avoiding meets and living w/ what you have.  If you want, I'll send you some tracks I use to see if you find them useful.  Just PM me.

You should join us on the Buffalo III build!

For my O2 theory, I need to borrow another one to have a control and variable.  Maybe LFF or Misterrogers will donate one for control and I'll torture mine.

@ extra

Here's a few purely subjective examples wrt reverb versus resolution:

Cat Stevens-Morning has broken:

The piano at the beginning and throughout sounds dull, flat and lifeless.  Nothing new, I'm used to crappily mic'd Pianos wrecking songs.  Then Cat Stevens comes in w/ his vocals and guitar.  Crystal clear vocals w/ depth, vibrancy and nuance.  Same for his guitar.  Distinct, clear strumming where you can almost visualize his pick doing it's magic.  So why flat lifeless dynamics for the Piano yet natural, holographic imaging for the vocals and guitar?  The difference is the Piano is mic'd like crap and Cat steven is obviously playing his guitar while singing right in front of his mic.  So why didn't the distortion or reverb affect the recording in its entirety and everything in it rather being selective?  Seems I'm hearing the recording and how it was mastered as opposed to an artificial effect.  Bear in mind too that the Piano has the greatest range across the FR compared to his vocals and strumming too.  Now next track which represents the inverse of this experience.

Derek and the Dominos-Layla:

The guitar starts off like the previous piano from Cat Stevens.  Flat, veiled, missing detail and micro dynamics.  then Clapton's vocals come in and they sound like his guitar.  However, the drums (toms and kick) come in and they are full, rich, natural, clear and holographic in imaging and depth.  Of course the Piano comes in later and is even worse than the one from 'morning has broken'.  Wall of noise w/ no depth or articulation.  So here we have the opposite.  Clapton's guitar and voice are wrecked by poor mic'ing while the drum set is treated w/ some respect (except the cymbals >.<).  Why again are certain instruments being targetted w/ this artificial effect and others not?  This time, it's the frequency band being targeted that's inverse to Cat Stevens so it's definitely not some funny FR business either.  Seems to be the master, not the amp to me

Aerosmith-Sweet Emotion:

All the beginning ambient effects and bass guitar are glorious with natural body, clear detail and that same holographic imaging until 35 seconds in.  Then Tylers vocals and other guitars are just sonically flat in the Y and Z-axes.  S o this isn't how the recording is supposed to sound?  Or is it?  Another case of track/instrument dependent reverb and distortion enhancement?  Hmm, hard to believe.  :-\ 

So what of actual reverb and room acoustics captured by the microphone and recording?  Are those all artifacts or coloration too?  See below.

Anne Murray-Danny's song:

Clear echo and reverb captured from Anne Murray's vocals or mixed in by the engineer.  The guitar and violins posses no echo or reverb.  I'd guess they were probably recorded separately and laid over her track or vice versa.

Tori Amos-Little Amsterdam:

Piano and drum kit has tons of droning reverb but her vocals are clean and distinct unlike Ann Murrays.  Tons of vocal details and texture.  For those that can't hear these vocal nuances, you have no idea how sexy it is to hear the movement of a women's lips and air rising from her diaphragm along w/ beautiful vocals.  She swallows hard at around 3:45.  Don't miss out guys.

Eagles-Hotel California, Vivaldi-Concerto for 2 violins in D Major, RV 513 Aston Magna, Dire Straits-Parties (Hi-rez Japanese Mini-LP):

Fuck it, they're all right in front of me playing live.  Don't appreciate the asshole yawning during my Vivaldi at 2:45 either.

So, fake detail?  Reverb enhancement?  More resolution via distortion?  Not so sure how that explains what I'm hearing.  Then again, these are just subjective listening impressions so completely worthless no doubt.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 04:00:26 AM by Analixus »
Logged
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2012, 06:30:13 AM »

One thing to keep in mind about generalizing what tubes sound like: practically all music before the late 1980s was recorded, mixed, and mastered on at least one piece of tube gear. Before 1980, it was probably all tube. On the same stuff which was used to produce Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole. Listen to some good Sinatra recordings (you may have to look) or find an original master tape. If that sounds like distorted tube crap, I'll take distorted tube crap.

It's more a generalization about what the kinds of tube amps currently sold to 'audiophiles' sound like.  Except for a few amps like the BHSE nobody makes tube amps that go for being as linear as possible according to the standard metrics since it would just sound solid state and cost more.

@ Mav

I agree w/ pretty much w/ everything you've said.  I'll try to arrange something like that when I can, a bit busy.  I'm currently in week 3 of 4 into capacitor rolling atm.  Then I need to write something up for the CX985 and Portaphile 627.  Not to mention building my new Intel 820/2011 w/ 64GB RAM and setting up a new office.  I also need to pull a couple of engines (4AFE  and EJ25).  Then Craig is dropping off his new SS for us to sample to make sure it doesn't sound like shit.  Oh yeah, work too.   ::) 

I'd do it myself if I had access to all of the equipment but the only headphone I have two of is the KSC-75 and I'm not surrounded on all sides by people I know well with all the right kit either. :)p1

I don't think you have tins ears.  More likely music preference and phone selection if anything at all.  The HD800 is no joke.  Even my HE5, HP1000 and UERM can't keep up w/ it anymore for A/B duties.  Probably the best thing to do to avoid stupid, ridiculous expenditures is avoiding the HD800 and 009 altogether or at least avoiding meets and living w/ what you have.  If you want, I'll send you some tracks I use to see if you find them useful.  Just PM me.

You should join us on the Buffalo III build!

The last time I heard an HD800 at a meet I was a lot less impressed than I remember being previously.   I didn't have time to hear the SR009 or R10 that were there but overall I wasn't all that impressed with anything else as compared to my PFE232s.  The HD800, HE-6, and LCD-3 were the only things I heard that were on the same level in areas other than a larger soundstage.

I tend to rate IEMs higher than most other people though...

You should join us on the Buffalo III build!

I've already got too many expensive projects planned out.
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2012, 07:01:54 PM »

Could I be a tin ear or something?  Maybe.  I manage to pick up on subtler details of headphones that a lot of other people seem to miss.  Things that other people, like you purrin, and RD can hear.  They also tend to show up on the right measurements so they probably really are there.  If I can do that then I can't be all that bad.

I don't think you have tins ears.

One more thing I thought of.  That's me questioning my own abilities, not me accusing anyone else of calling me names.  It kinda ties in to the way I think about this kind of stuff.

Maybe I'm just a little OCD about but I continually question myself about pretty much everything.  What if my memories have been confabulated?  What if my senses were mistaken?  What if my senses aren't good enough?  What if, for whatever reason, I'm wrong and how can I find out.

I'm not perfect at it, but I try to take a step back and fit my personal experiences into and overall framework and not give them any more weight than anyone else's just because I experienced them.  I've experienced some pretty weird things that didn't actually happen and I've never done any drugs, or even ever been drunk.

The more I can correlate my experiences with some objective metric the more I'll trust them.  Even if I heard some amp or DAC that I loved and thought sounded better and/or different despite the lack of a plausible explanation I wouldn't just change my mind on the spot.  I'd have to conduct a suitable rigorous test before I believed it was an independent phenomenon that existed outside of my mind.

You could say that's motivation for me to not want to hear differences and that could be right.  Who knows whether the desire for better SQ or the desire to not have to do extra work will win in my subconscious.   That's why I have to step back and look at my experiences in a larger context.  I certainly did experience something but what is the explanation for it?  It's consistent with either hypothesis so the experience isn't enough and I have to look to other evidence.

Things like the Carver Challenge where a cheap solid state power amp was made indistingushable from a multi-kilobuck tube model via a -70dB null and various tests where an extra 16/44 ADC/DAC process was inserted into a signal chain without detection give my position a lot of support.  It doesn't logically 'prove' it but proof is for mathematics and alcohol.  I do think it demonstrates the usefulness of standard measurement techniques beyond a reasonable doubt.

There is still room for doubt, but how much?  Unfortunately it hasn't been exhaustively studied since there isn't much interest.  Academically, no one seems to care, people who claim they can hear the differences have the most to loose by being proven wrong, and nobody on the other side stands to make a financial gain by being proven right so definitive large scale research hasn't happened.  The tests that have been done could all be wrong.  Even if they are all wrong their results still limit the effect of any unknown factors such that the overwhelming probability is that any unknown factors are very small.

I thi nk that justifies my position without recourse to simply saying it doesn't exist because I haven't heard it.
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

Willakan

  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +20/-17
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
  • I'm quite reasonable really.
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2012, 07:52:06 PM »


EDIT: Fixed hyperlinks.
The reason so little research has been conducted, IMHO, requires a brief voyage into hi-fi history, with the help of Douglas Self's website.

The literature of a given period in audio provides a reasonable indicator of prevailing trends, so it's telling  that the audio magazines of this period had a much stronger bias towards engineering, Mr Self noting that "it was perfectly normal to read amplifier reviews in which measurements were dissected but no mention made of listening tests." "The Absolute Sound" had yet to be founded, and although Stereophile's first issue was in the early 60s its circulation was so small as to drive it heavily into debt, John Atkinson noting that "Throughout the 1970s, Stereophile issues appeared increasingly infrequently and the circulation declined until Gordon moved to New Mexico in 1978, at which point things almost ground to a halt..."

"HiFi News", founded in the 50s, was one of the few publications to adopt a vaguely subjective approach and still enjoy decent circulation. Even so, the tone is fundamentally different to the audio reviews of today. Take this 1969 turntable review: (http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=1190.0). The focus is overwhelmingly on the design of the product and its specifications, with nary a flowery piece of description to be seen. That even mild subjectivism was in its infancy can be seen in the inclusion of a section entitled "Subjective Sounds" in the "Audio" magazine issue of 1976 as a novelty - the writer even felt it was necessary to open his section with a justification of the approach! Anyhow, it would seem that things escalated, and by 1977 one columnist was laying into negative feedback, and another was pushing valve sound - the mainstream idea of complex amplifier sound signatures that were not amenable to measurements had well and truly arrived (The first discussion of cable sound followed in the magazine following in 1978). By the 1980s the high-end audio market had exploded, and the rest is history...

Various AES articles preoccupied with this period, and what immediately followed, make passing reference to the "Great Debate", including the aptly-named "The Great Debate: 10 Years On". Aside from corroborating the timings for the sudden and unexpected explosion of audio subjectivism, it also demonstrates the confusion with which those advocates of A/B/X responded when they found that their genuinely well-intentioned efforts to verify a huge array of supposedly audible things that had suddenly manifested themselves in the ears of mainstream audio reviewers in the late 70s was met with disdain: long-term (or even short-term) adoption of their test protocol was absolutely minimal. "10 Years of A/B/X Testing" repeats the pattern:  "It was thought by the author and his associates that general use of this system would resolve "The Great Debate" [2] of whether or not small differences in audio components were audible. The debate rages on, however."

As it transpired, it seemed that, especially in the long-term, very few people wanted to know, much to the bemusement of the AES paper authors, one of which went to great lengths to make an A/B/X box easily commercially available to anyone who wanted one for simple comparison. As far as I'm concerned, when the audio press as a whole completely failed to satisfy the burden of proof for an increasingly vast range of differences which nobody ever seemed to have noticed before, the burdens of proof started to pile up and have kept piling up ever since. Astoundingly, many turned (and still turn) to attacking blind testing or the A/B/X protocol itself.

From my perspective this is absolutely mystifying: they were off ered a simple way to verify their incredibly contentious claims, but instead attack the method of verification and then act as if those suggesting the method are the ones who really need it, and thus consider science duly vanquished. Even in recent years, John Atkinson notes in a comment to one of his Stereophile articles that the inability of any test to comprehensively disprove anything is a source of great frustration to the audio 'objectivists' - a throwaway comment revealing the bizarre inversion of the burden of proof which has been hanging over audio in a faintly Damoclean fashion, ever since subjectivism exploded into the mainstream.

Nobody is going to bother researching anything until the basic prima facies case for the existence of the phenomena to be investigated has been made. Three decades have passed with little sign of anything of the sort: I'm not holding out hope.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:43:19 PM by Willakan »
Logged
Indecent lover of cheap opamps...

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2012, 12:28:45 AM »

I have an idea for a listening test that could be done to see if an amp is adding or subtracting something from the signal.

Take an amp you like, such as the S7 or BA, and wire it's output in parallel with a pair of headphones and the input of an amp that measures flat, has minimal distortion, very low Zout, etc like the O2.  Then listen to the output of the second amp with another pair of the same model of headphone that is in parallel with its input. 

If the second amp fed with that input sounds the same as the first amp by itself then the second amp must be transparent to it input.  If the second amp doesn't sound the same then it must adding/subtracting something on its own.  If they sound different by themselves when fed with the same source and the second amp is transparent to its input then the first amp must not be.

Just tried this with my Crack, O2, and two pair of KSC-75.

Didn't work out too well.  They're too damn good at being microphones.  The load pair added a little hiss from my computer's fans or something when in parallel with the O2's input.  I tried wrapping them up in some cloth to block out the ambient noise but that over damped them and made the bass tighter on the other pair when playing from the O2.

If anyone else tries this you might have to take some steps to fix those issues.  Having a dead quite place to try it is a start.  It's probably a good idea, if slightly annoying, to put the load 'phones on a long enough extension cable that they can run to a different room and have someone in that room wearing them to get the right acoustic impedance.
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

anetode

  • an objectivist trapped in a subjectivist's body
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +178/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2012, 10:31:52 PM »

The Xonar STX is probably the best soundcard I've tried out of about a dozen over the years. I use the STX line out as a pre-amp for a pair of Be 718s run from a Roksan K2 amp. All headphone listening is done through the DA11 fed by the STX optical out. While the ASIO/KS software I use sometimes glitches, the card itself never falters. Its headphone out is also pretty good, especially on high-impedance phones.

On a casual test on my speakers I could not tell the difference between the volume-matched DA11 and the STX. The radical price differential has kept me away from more expensive DACs (2k+).
Logged
Love isn't always on time.

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2012, 03:57:26 PM »

It's actually got a decent DAC / lineout. I didn't care for the built-in headamp though. That part seemed like an afterthought.
Logged

extrabigmehdi

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +2/-13
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2012, 05:57:15 PM »

It's actually got a decent DAC / lineout. I didn't care for the built-in headamp though. That part seemed like an afterthought.

Are you implying that the built in amp sucks ?
I  need more information regarding that matter.
I  saw a review praising the "essence one" being enough good for "high end" headphone,
and essentially the difference with xonar stx is the amping part.
Logged

Anaxilus.

  • Dikus Beligerantis Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 577
Re: The Asus Xonar ST/X's line-out is surprisingly good.
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2012, 09:08:10 PM »

Good enough usually means loud enough, not 'get out of the way' enough or well driven enough depending on the circumstances.  Surely a HD600 is good enough too so why bother w/ a HD800 or any other ToTL phone.  Maybe people just like paying $800 more for a silver Robotech look.   ::) 
Logged
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7