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Author Topic: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)  (Read 4527 times)

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Anaxilus.

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iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« on: May 06, 2012, 04:58:43 AM »
Been lightly following the 'iTunes Mastered', DSD, subjective, objective thing for a bit so I figured the time was right to prime the well here.  Since Herr Hertsens and Herr Guttenberg are feeding the beast and Neil Young forgot he was a musician I figured it only made sense.  Even Schiit might feel obliged to drop a load.  Since we have a semi-literate, post adolescent population (Rex excluded) this seems like a good place to have constructive dialogue. 
To start off:

http://arstechnica.com//apple/news/2012/04/does-mastered-for-itunes-matter-to-music-ars-puts-it-to-the-test.ars

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/02/why-neil-young-hates-mp3-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/are-objective-headphone-measurements-relevant-audiophiles-subjective-experience

Anybody feel free to link relevant neutral/natural threads if they like.

Have at it!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:12:10 AM by Analixus »
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LFF

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 05:09:26 AM »
FIRST!

Placeholder...while I cool down and put down some notes.....
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ultrabike

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 05:48:02 AM »
I chimed in on the objective/subjective Innerfidelity thread. Guttenberg would not let it go and kept going in the lightly commented Innerfidelity review about the Philips L1:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/handsome-philips-fidelio-l1#comment-483189

However, I'm not sure how honest Guttenberg is about his own position. He keeps putting down measurements, and keeps advocating that their are completely unnecessary. But he is very careful about his words. He avoids a direct confrontation about measurements ability to predict sonic characteristics. One of his strongest arguments is how Grado, which he argues is a great can, is developed by ear. To start of, he kept saying in the past that he review amps with his well regarded HD580, so obviously he is not a Grado man. Second, most people have not heard half of the headphones available in the market and do not have access to most of them anyway (I've yet to hear an HD600 for example), so most of us go by word of mouth. Easy to think that Grados are the best thing there is if you come from ibuds, and headbands...

I would be surprised if someone like Guttenberg honestly believes measurements are unnecessary. On the other hand, I can see how an article like that is aimed at producing controversy and increase reader contribution and why not say it: $$$. I don't know, it just sounds like a waste of time to me. It seems to me Guttenberg believes he has little to lose by supporting the subjective stand (which I again, I don't really think he believes himself) because he might feel his reviews are typically cursory and apparently aimed at more casual readers... I would be careful about that if I was him though.





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Anaxilus.

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 06:14:06 AM »
While I think there is an honest disagreement between the two I do think there is quite a bit of theater going on.  It's better to focus on the more central core of the debate rather than the extremes.  Saying measurements are useless is as equally worthless as saying the ear is completely unreliable so we should avoid that.  Maybe that should be a parameter.
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Marvey

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 06:47:08 AM »
SG is the master of nebulousness. I've never seen SG truly criticize a product or even explain anything on how a headphone sounds like. Believing in objective measurements would suddenly put him in the awkward position of having to explain himself.


At least he's not as bad as Robert H Levi of Positive Feedback.
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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 07:10:17 AM »
Quote from: Analixus on May 06, 2012, 06:14:06 AM
While I think there is an honest disagreement between the two I do think there is quite a bit of theater going on.  It's better to focus on the more central core of the debate rather than the extremes.  Saying measurements are useless is as equally worthless as saying the ear is completely unreliable so we should avoid that.  Maybe that should be a parameter.

+1

I haven't read through the articles yet, but this is a good thought to consider going forward. Too often this subjective vs. objective thing turns into extremism.

What's the general consensus and basic assumptions around these parts?

1. Objective measurements are an extremely useful tool to provide insight on what we're hearing.
2. Measurements aren't the final word, and in its current understanding may provide an incomplete picture of what we hear
3. Subjective impressions can be very susceptible to bias, and can be unreliable
4. There are ways to mitigate bias and unreliability of subjective listening (training, testing against reference, blind testing etc.)

Not exactly sure if #2 and #4 are necessarily a consensus here.

I guess most of the friction comes when objective measurements don't coincide with subjective listening. I tend to believe in those cases that maybe measurements don't tell the whole story.
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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2012, 07:20:05 AM »
I think if a headphone sounds good and measures poorly you either have crap ears or there's something wrong with the measurement system (bad data or missing data).  Around here, I'd tend to blame the measurements.  On head-fi I'd be a bit more inclined to blame the ear at least partially. 
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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2012, 08:08:43 AM »
Please explain Wharfedale ID-1. Kthxbye.
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Marvey

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2012, 08:37:58 AM »
Measurements are a form of communication. It does take a some effort and learning to understand the language of measurements.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/are-objective-headphone-measurements-relevant-audiophiles-subjective-experience#comment-483209

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/are-objective-headphone-measurements-relevant-audiophiles-subjective-experience#comment-483210

If it seems like I'm needling SG a bit, it is. As reviewer, he should understand the need to effectively communicate to his... Oh WTF. I'm not going to bother.
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ultrabike

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Re: iTunes, Goldenears, Dscopes and You(ng)
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
Maybe it is that SG is old and inflexible in his views. However, he is a professional audio reviewer. Even if his background is not technical, he should make an effort on evaluating equipment from all angles. One cannot dismiss other metrics of evaluation EVEN if in the reviewer's flawed subjective view they "don't bring anything else to the table." I often find it elegant when a system scores high in almost all types of evaluations. I don't know, SG has been in the field too long for him not to give objectivity its dues, regardless of his background.

Subjectively reviewing and developing an audio product is dangerous. From what I've learned we are not all sensitive to the same frequency response issues. A headphone with NO issues is likely to appeal to a broader audience, and outperform its pears. A headphone with certain issues at 6kHz but not at 2kHz may appeal to a narrower audience that is insensitive to 6kHz... Steve's sensitivities are likely not universal... I find that believing one has universal reference level golden ears that will catch any offending issues in a headphone is a bit arrogant and flawed. Even when doing objective evaluations, one can make mistakes or incorrect assumptions.
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