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Author Topic: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges  (Read 3031 times)

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Sorrodje

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 09:28:52 PM »

Dunno if anyone here tried the Philips Golden ear challenge but at last stage, there's an exercice where the goal is to detect peaks or dips at different frequencies : 63hz, 125, 250 , 500, 1khz, 2khz, 4khz, 8khz 16khz.   I really would like to have the training tracks to help my brain to remembre the effects of dips or peaks a those frequencies.

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2015, 09:51:39 PM »

Simply play your test music through a player with a multiband equalizer and play with the sliders.
This is how I 'tought' myself when I was young (used a real equalizer then which was hugely popular in those days.
Nothing beats those kind of experineces.

use a 'flat' headphone for this... HD600 or DT250-250 if you want 'flat' as a reference and play with colorations.
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Sorrodje

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 09:55:19 PM »

Simply play your test music through a player with a multiband equalizer and play with the sliders.
This is how I 'tought' myself when I was young (used a real equalizer then which was hugely popular in those days.
Nothing beats those kind of experineces.

use a 'flat' headphone for this... HD600 or DT250-250 if you want 'flat' as a reference and play with colorations.

You're right indeed... I did that exercice sometimes bit I forgot. Sorry   ::)

Bill-p

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 10:49:26 PM »

Thks for the thread. This is really a topic I'm interested in.

Can we to sum up something as a collective work we can make reference to ?  At best could we associate some useful track tests well suited to analyze each FR ? And examples of headphones that can illustrate peaks and dips in their sound sig?

 popcorn

Will try to consolidate impressions into the first post as a collection of frequencies. I'll take the "broadest" width of a certain frequency range and then relay the impressions for that range specifically. That way, anyone who is interested in learning about it can just read those and cross-reference them.

Also a nice bonus would be that one only has to search the first post for certain "words" that people use to describe a certain frequency range to get a ballpark of what it means when they go "this sounds 'grainy'" or "vocal is shrill!"

Still not sure on what I should do for test tracks and all. Some things can only be noticed in certain tracks at very certain locations, and sometimes even just for a brief moment.
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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2015, 08:44:34 AM »

The problems I see here are a few.
1: dips are a lot harder to hear than peaks but lots of headphones have peaks.
2: sometimes sharp peaks preceded by a dip are hard to 'detect' or 'put a finger on'
3: headphones usually have lots of peaks and dips often exceeding 3dB and thus quite audible. It is difficult to 'break' those apart and one peak may mask dips and vice versa
4: resonances may not be visible in FR plots but can affect the sound, CSD and/or impedance must be included.
5: sometimes wildly varying HF can be caused by the measurement technique while in reality it is smoother. This could lead to an assumption of grainy highs where it may not be the case.
6: a sharp drop-off above 13kHz isn't detected as lacking 'air' all the time. A peak that isn't too high may be masking it.
7: Some people find LF roll-off not objectionable and say bass is tight yet another one, who knows what should be there, may find it lacking bass.
8: a peak in the 100Hz area with a steep drop-off in the subbass may still be perceived as a bassy headphone while it has no extension at all.

In short.. It is pretty difficult (if not impossible) to characterise a headphone's sound by looking at graphs.
Certainly not when graphs are taken by different people.

I have given up characterising it and know what to look for by now.
I like MY headphones to measure as flat as possible from 20Hz to 20kHz within +/- 3dB and this MAY get you a tonally balanced headphone but NOT necesarily a headphone everyone likes nor will it always sound good with any recording but it will with good ones.
The least possible resonances and 'echos' from the rear of the driver seems essential and is hard to see in FR and interpret from CSD.

I like the idea of characterising headphones myself and is why I made the FR plot where you can find substantial peaks at those points providing it is just one or 2 peaks that F up the sound.

Then there is subjective impressions that differ. One mans bass shy may be another ones 'real bass'.  One mans 'good bass' will be another ones 'bloat', one mans 'good treble' may be another ones 'I hear no highs' or 'piercing s#it'.
This too (perception) may be the biggest problem of all.

So my motto has become (for myself only) have an educated guess from plots when available while keeping in mind WHO posts the plots.
Read reviews and look for common traits in it or find one from a person who's hearing you trust.
But the best one of all is to audition one AT HOME for a while and compare it (one gets used to a presentation really quick).
Sell it on and regard the money loast as 'educational fees' or return it if possible and you don't loose out too much.

Just my POV
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funkmeister

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2015, 11:22:12 AM »

Hmmm... I can't seem to track down the old practical EQ guide for recording and mixing. It was surprisingly precise about certain frequencies such as the wall between sibilance and vocal body (8kHz down, 9kHz up).

Anyway, a good read from the recording perspective is here: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/home-recording-eq-frequency-guidelines.html

With so many variables, iit is hard to get a recording to sound its best. It gives credence to those who want to hear their music as closely to the master as possible.
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Bill-p

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 07:37:46 PM »

So I've been tuning the frequency response of my modded LCD-2 slightly, and it seems like boosting 4-4.5KHz by a very small amount can help a lot with snap, speed, transparency, etc...

Given that the LCD-2 is a bit de-emphasized in this area, perhaps this is why it sounds so dark despite having a spike at 10KHz?

Anyway, will investigate more.

Edit: not quite so. Darkness is something else. But 4-4.5KHz is definitely the edge/snap. I think "sharpness" is higher up (5-6KHz?) since I'm not hearing sharpness, but definitely a lot more snap, more speedy after bumping 4-4.5KHz.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:13:05 PM by Bill-p »
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Bill-p

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 11:34:13 PM »

So... going with the discussion at hand, it really seems like sharpness is in the 5-6KHz region now. I think beyond 6KHz is where sibilance may occur.

CEE TEE recently introduced me to Adele's Chasing Pavements track, and I got the iTunes version following my meeting with him. Dear God, this recording is sibilant to no end. What I have found is that it seemingly has a boost to the entire upper region, and the boost is wide enough that it reaches past 13KHz. It gives some extra definition and clarity for something like... say, the Beats by Dre, but it is detrimental to a lot of high-end headphones with an emphasis at higher frequencies. Going by what I'm measuring from my phone, the 12KHz peak is unusually high compared to many other recordings, and then there's also a peak around 7KHz. CEE TEE also mentioned "squeakiness", which I think is around 1-2KHz. And so... when I looked up the Beats By Dre Pro's frequency response on Innerfidelity, I saw just that:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MonsterBeatsPro.pdf

Hm... so to actually hear that one recording (or perhaps the entire album) the way it was intended to be heard, I think we all need to buy Beats By Dre Pro.

:P
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JoelT

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 11:46:58 PM »

CEE TEE recently introduced me to Adele's Chasing Pavements track, and I got the iTunes version following my meeting with him. Dear God, this recording is sibilant to no end.

Being a glutton for punishment, I had to check this out on Spotify. Ouch. Even with my HD600, which are pretty forgiving in this regard, there is painfully pronounced high frequency lift. I'm scared to listen to it through HD800's.  :vomit:
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Bill-p

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Re: Subjective impressions on frequency ranges
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2015, 02:38:29 AM »

Frequency peaks when I measured Adele's Chasing Pavements with my phone (notice gray line and ignore the rainbow stuffs, that's just current ambient noise levels - noise floor, also cursor is measuring lower peaks, so no idea what the higher peaks are, but you can count relative to 1KHz, which I used to volume match both headphones):

Modded LCD-2: (peak at 12.5KHz)


Modded HE-560: (peak at 10KHz, and overall treble from 5-8KHz is more "lifted" than LCD-2, but not terrible)


Those spikes at 10 and 12.5KHz... ow. Luckily, I did mod these headphones to be a bit on the "dark" side so they don't really spike up that crazy, and they are sort of bearable with this song, but I'd expect the HD600 and HD800 to spotlight that section pretty bad.

Just a thought: we can probably measure frequency response or CSD using songs instead of pink noise or sine sweeps, and maybe it'll give us some insights into how a headphone behaves with certain songs.

Oh, and recessed 500Hz? Very audible. Makes the song lack body/soul/fullness, etc...

Edit: and the LCD-2 sounds a bit more distant/far away compared to the HE-560, even though the HE-560 is a bit brighter, and yet fuller at the same time. I'd guess... decay characteristics or speed? But I wouldn't know.
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