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Author Topic: Question about headphone/eadpad mechanical DIY mods to alter acoustics/FR/CSD  (Read 959 times)

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knerian

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I've seen brief info on Jerg's Hifiman earpad and grill mods, and Anax's HD800 mods, and the bill-p he-560 mod (don't know what the actual mod is though).  I have some questions for clarification, if anyone could answer I would appreciate.

1)  Are both the LFF Paradox/Enigma/Slant and the Mr Speakers just commercialized mods of the fostex driver?  Are there any other mods that people sell?

What I've seen is that people are starting to mod a lot now, but I see the Jerg and Anax mods somewhat limited to materials that are available.  Either through hifiman pads or craft materials like the Creatology foam.

2)  Would there be interest in the DIY community if there was more access to a much wider and cheaper array of industrial materials?

I ask this because I've come across a lot of materials in my work - the velour, the foam, to a lesser extent the grids (i've seen metal meshes, but haven't explored it that much).  I do a good amount of sourcing in China, and for example I just bought the HE-560 and HE-6, hifiman uses basic packaging materials and some of the stuff he uses in his pads as well.  That grey foam rings in his HE-6 pleather pads is basic EVA foam used for packaging, it has the EVA smell, it's used in tons of Chinese packaging where a shape is cut out to put the product in, just look at the grey foam in his HE-6 and HE-560 boxes and you know what i mean.  His pleather and velour is nothing special either, it's just commonly available material.

I bring this up because I suspect headphone manufacturers concentrate on the driver mostly, I watched that 2012 vid with Marv and the Audeze CEO and to me it looked like he didnt' find Marv's waterfalls impressive (my read on it, I could be wrong so don't tear me a new one if that's not the case) and he even said he does a standard measurement of just the driver (no enclosure, no pads, no cup), "the proper way".  After reading about the CSD's, it's seems that the ringing is not a driver issue necessarily but is a physical acoustic one, similar to not treating a room for speakers where you get resonances at certain frequencies due to geometry ALONE.  Given that this is the case, it seems the most obvious solution (and maybe only solution) to flatten an FR or improve the sound of a headphone is almost always going to be physical mods to the geometry.

This is not new to you guys, it's new to me.  But I see you guys modding with whatever you could find, or not even looking too far and just using the materials provided by the original manufacturer. 

What if you could find you cheap materials, like foams, and fabrics, and cloths, of varying materials, with varying properties (thicknesses, densities, geomtries (metal grills with varying spacing, various metals), etc).  I think it would be very difficult to try and predict the acoustic properties of this stuff, it seems like you would just need a library of materials to just play with by trial and error.

Or for example look at the DIY geometries - Jerg's mod is cutting holes by hand.  How available are laser cutters here in the US?  In China where I am they are all 3rd party services that are super cheap, you bring almost any material to them, give them a design or just describe it to them, and they just put the shit on a laser cutting machines, run the machines and then and give it to you.  You can laser cut super thin scarve material, metal, almost anything.  $10 labor and you could have 100 pc of Jerg modded earpad pleathor flats.  Or use another material, doesn't matter.

I don't really have in interest in this sort of thing, but I see the materials HIfiman is using and I read a lot about people being confined to focus A pads or production pads and velour pads and vegan pads from other brands an d THAT'S IT!  People are limited to the reflective ability of Hifiman pleather or velour, two choices!!!!  That's very limiting!  And I now there is a HUGE variety of materials out there.  In my work I see all sorts of cotton and polyester batting and filling of different densities, foams of all sorts of densities, tons of synthetic cloths, fibers, vinyl, leather, pleather, velour, etc.  They use this stuff to make handbags, stuffed toys, clothing, scarves, etc.  None of it is high-tech acoustic material.  And at these markets in China they are sold wholesale, but if there is stock you can buy 1 yard of it.  $5.00, done.  $50.00, you've got a ton of materials to play with.  They don't have any sort of comparable market anywhere else in the world due to the current state of manufacturing and the very outsourced model that the Chinese economy runs on (most factories are NOT huge vertically integrated enterprises, many factories consist of a room with one machine where they do ONE thing, like laser cut, or die stamp designs, all contract work).  It's perfect for experimenting with no investment of capital.

I also suspect that most audio manufacturers DON'T put a ton of research into those pad and cup materials of headphones, they want something that is comfortable and doesn't look like shit.

So let me know if there is any interest in exploring new materials.  Maybe Anux and Jerg already completely exhausted this area, but if not, there may be interest.  I have no interest in DIY, I have no interest in profiting, and honestly I have no interest in even doing this as I'm busy and lazy, but it would be cool to see some sort of open source DIY library of materials to "acoustically treat" your favorite headphones.  If you want to commercialize it that's something else, but I think there's a serious lack of resources even just for DIY'ers, they have to go to Michael's and Amazon and just buy whatever is commercially available.  I won't even go back to China for a few months, but when I do I could grab this stuff if there's interest, and send it to the hardcore DIY'ers like Anux and Jerg.  Or any other poster here who already is in China could do the same. 

Or other people could chime in with suggestions, for example the grills - people are using wastepaper baskets and cutting out sections.  I don't have strong sources for this sort of material, but I've seen posts by members here who have 3-d printers, CNC resources, etc, who could custom make grills, wouldn't it be cool if there was a more community effort and those who could easily access those resources offered them up?  Just an idea.
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Solderdude

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I had typed a LOT but it all vanished suddenly while typing, so a shorter reply.

I do not think it is possible to predict results based on a database with materials.

All drivers (when measured in free air on a normalised distance) will measure different.
All drivers mounted on a standardised baffle (if it would exist) will measure different.
When driver A is mounted in enclosure B it will measure/sound different from enclosure C
Pad A will have a different effect on FR and CSD on driver B and driver C
No head shape is the same and thus seal differs (over-ears)
No Pinna shape is the same and thus seal differs (on-ears)
Taste differs someones bass is anothers bloom, someones treble is anothers piercing nightmare.
All measurement rigs differ... which one is closest to the truth ?
driver A responds differently to various forms of damping than driver B or C
Likewise with materials used in front of a driver (though these are more predictable in general.

Headphone modding needs to be done on piece by piece basis.
I even dare to say is difficult when doing it all by ear and measurements are necessary... but are the measurements correct ?
Especially with Fostex drivers, I also found substantial differences even between L and R driver needing different damping in L and R cups.

It's a niche market thing.
No dr. beats owner cares about mods nor flat FR  they just want bass and treble (but not too much treble)

Also some materials may be easy and cheap to get in country A but impossible in country B etc.


Just my opinion though.

The idea of a database is great but practically impossible IMHO.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 03:21:35 PM by Solderdude »
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Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

dBel84

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Interesting post Kiernan and welcome to the forums.

What you describe is exactly what a handful of DIY/Modders have been doing for a while. One problem has been reliability of supply. A classic example is a wonderful natural damping material that was a firm favorite amongst a group of planar modders that had a limited supply. It was a dense cashmere felt that an Italian DIYer discovered in a small tailor store in Milan - "Moorbrook" : it was new old stock from the 1950s and had been used to make fine tailored suites. Then there was the yellow wool felt that came from Australia "auzzie felt", similar story, made the old Foster T10 drivers sing but all too soon supplies were out and people were grappling for another option. I suspect most modders have a stash of their own materials - I have 2 storage bins full of various materials, enough to try hundreds of different configurations with whatever driver I was trying to tweak.

SD is spot on that every driver reacts differently either in free space or in the housing deemed to suite it. What he doesn't mention is that there is reasonable variability within the specs of the same driver. This has been one of the biggest challenges with modifying headphones as the same mods do not always achieve the same results. The basic approach may be similar but the final tweaking will be subtly different.

One thing you mention is the lack of manufacturers trying various things. I am sure for the mass market this holds true and I have had personal experience with some of these mass market products which have little or no thought in the damping process. I do think ( and know ) that several of the higher end manufacturers do trial the effect of various foams in their pads, test different damping materials etc. They cannot focus on the minute tweaking of the sound in the way that DIYers do as this would not make for a viable commercial product. They have to compromise to a degree and come up with something that provides an easy manufacture process, produces an end product that fits within an acceptable norm, and obviously use materials that are in current production.

I only wish it was easier to do one off prototyping to test different ideas, I can tell you that many ideas have "washed under the bridge" due to lack of implementation .

..dB


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Armaegis

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In theory one could run a few* standardized measurements on sample materials to form a dataset, then model/perform finite element analysis and other hoodoo to predict acoustic behaviour.

Oh but then we'd need individual measurements and calibrations for every person's head as well, although I think that would be marginally less involve than the material database and could possibly be transformed/parameterized from a baseline head.

*more like a lot
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Bill-p

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Yeah... lack of materials is a problem alright.

For instance, one of the longest mods I have ever done is my Audio Technica ATH-ES10 headphone. I didn't have shelf-liner, and I didn't even think about using them. Then I read that Jerg had good results using shelf-liners to dampen reflections in his HE-560, so... I went and got some. But I went further and tried to apply it as... dampening material. Guess what? It acted better than "acoustic" foam, so I was able to shape the frequency response better.

Also using it as a filtering material (not as reflection dampener) also allows me to tune the sound even more. At this point, the headphone is a lot better than how it was a month or so ago, but I didn't know better then.

So yeah... I'm all for this idea, and I'd be happy to contribute what I've learned so far.

Side note: will send my ES10 to Marv one of these days for another bout of measurements, and it would show the difference between using acoustic fiberglass as dampening material, and felt/foam/leather as dampening material.
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knerian

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I do not think it is possible to predict results based on a database with materials.


I agree, I didn't mean it like that, I meant just have a catalog of materials that you could experiment and play with, and then if it worked you could easily get it.

My main thing is about choice, I think you're limited by what is commercially available, what is available as retail to buy.

Some of this stuff isn't even sold in the US since there's no market for consumers, it's other manufacturers buying material to use in the production of a different product.

Anyways this is all talk.  Next time I'm in China I will spend some time looking for stuff.  I think a library of materials would be nice, but logistically and practically may not be feasible to pull off. You would need something like a "Maker" center, where DIYers are all geographically located close to each other, for it to even be practical.  In the end it seems it really is up to each individual DIY'ers interest, time, resourcefulness, etc.
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