Topic: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference? (Read 4556 times)

RexAeterna · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2014, 07:12:38 PM »

I don't see how the hd800 suffer from any form of grain. Grain comes from some form of transient distortion in most cases Im guessing cause I heard graininess more from certain amps than speakers. Some headphones I heard it before too but not often if the headphone was well design or decent. I heard grain before on stax before and my modded fostex t50rp before off certain receivers, preamps, and power amps as well so it's nothing exclusive just to "dynamic" drivers.

I have limiting experience with dacs/interfaces but there was couple interfaces I use to get off my buddies to mess with that were grainy in the upper registers that's why in guessing grain is more associated with transient distortion cause lot of stuff while seem low in IMD and THD, a lot are not low enough in TIM. The hd800 is a very, very well design headphone with very good distortion rating that is very exceptional. The hd600/650 is very clean sounding in the upper registers too. Who knows though, I can be very wrong and I just have bad hearing since I just listen to music and not much of a critical listener. I just notice things when I notice them.

Anaxilus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2014, 08:36:00 PM »

Quote from: MuppetFace on December 27, 2014, 12:22:26 PM

Pretty much.

Though I'm still confused because the original argument is suggesting that this grain is source dependent and not coming from the HD800 itself? If the Stax are masking something, then that something has to be coming from the source?

The two shades of the argument I'm seeing are basically: good IN SPITE of the grain or good BECAUSE OF the grain.

Not quite, the original response of mine was in relation to most grain complaints which is indeed usually from upstream gear which has been IME. For example, OJ heard my rig originally via USB (XMOS)> PWD and complained about brightness and grain. Told him it was largely the PWD USB implementation, he was skeptical. Next time we ran the PWD via AES from the Hilo and the brightness and grain was largely tamed which I think OJ will attest to. All the prototype complaints of brittle and bright grain or hash from the Rag prototypes at meets that last few years? Optical from the Macbooks he was running as sources. Swap to his vinyl rig at the same meet and that grain is GONE.

My original comment was directed at people hearing the HD800 for the first time which IME usually produces negative comments about their upstream gear which I feel is more often than not attributed to the phone. I think if one were to plot the metrics of these complaints you would find this to be the case based on actual data if we could design the study right. I just don't think certain people are appreciating that grain indeed comes from multiple sources and can have multiple definitions.

That said, I've reiterated time and time again to n3rdling and other comments that the HD800 will never be inherently as smooth as some planars or stats (some planars and stats do have grain as well). So if that's your thing, go for it. I feel n3rdlings comments are misplaced attributing all grain perceived from the HD800 as source independent. To me this is incorrect. I, like OJ, also feel that ethereal and certain smoothing effects are just as far from natural sonics as grain so the higher-fi argument is troublesome to us. If I make any sound using my body like snapping fingers, clapping hands, clearing my throat, I feel the HD800 better represents a truer sense of texture to it than something that is smoother and more 'liquid' sounding. I have no problem saying this is my sonic preference. Others seem to be saying this is empirically false somehow because planars are faster. To me this is not that far off from only looking at FR to determine fidelity. I'd look to speakers where voice coils simply dominate planars in IME for accurate reproduction. Maybe somebody can point me to a planar speaker rig that will prove their point about how all this speed makes for a superior sounding driver.

I'm not sure how the Stax smoothing is coming from the source follows from any of this. All drivers have a sound signature or timbre. I think comparing the original LCD2/3 to the new LCD-X/LCD-XC is a decent comparison to make the point. I found the LCD-X new driver membrane to have this overly smoothed timbre compared to the older drivers. It was more pleasant and less gritty but they were also less resolving to me. Not because they weren't adding grit or noise to the recording as some feel is happening here, but because the inner harmonics (reverb and decay) just don't get fleshed out as much. In an ironic twist, I'm pretty sure the newer smoother drivers are actually a little slower than the older ones.

Anyhow, whether it's a Shure with liquid mids, a Teflon cap, OR5 with turboclocks, stat or planar with smoothing, they all have this mannequin effect to my ears.

n3rdling · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2014, 11:04:31 PM »

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 27, 2014, 07:29:27 AM

OJ gets what I'm saying. No offense to Milos, I love you man and you've been great for everyone in the community but this Stax perfection is just too much for me to buy. The fact the Dynahi is your preeminently favorite amp with the HD800 doesn't give me much confidence. I think when you used to listen to most stuff at meets back in the day (like 5 years ago), the B22 and various iterations of KG sterility were the standards. They aren't anymore and they had their own grain issues.

Just want to nip this in the bud right off the bat. The Dynahi has never been my favorite amp for the HD800 and I'd never recommend that pairing if one is open to tubes. I've always said I prefer the HD800 on tube amps, generally. Hell, that day they came out my favorite HD800 pairing at CJ was probably from Jude's RSA Raptor, which is a typical OTL amp. I much preferred it paired with that amp than with any of the megabuck HeadRoom stuff, Apache, B22, m3, etc. Not saying the Raptor is some amazing pairing with the HD800, it was just better than what was present that day. There are only a few amps that I've enjoyed the HD800 from and they're all tube amps. I still haven't opened my HD800 because I don't feel like lugging the Menace out of storage to listen to it. I have the Dynahi sitting right here though and the HD800 remains untouched, so I think that says everything. Probably my favorite amp with the HD800 is the Balancing Act (unless we're counting Frank's stuff).

I think there's a (potential) flaw in your logic regarding upstream gear being at fault and not the headphones. As I said in the shoutbox, the grain is present with everything I've heard the HD800 from, which is a lot of mixtures. In fact, I've probably listened to more HD800 rigs than any other headphone rigs. It doesn't matter if I'm listening to a top SS amp (dynahi), a top tube amp (BA/2a3/etc), a huge OTL amp (Menace), a crazy SE amp (Frank's stuff), SD DACs (Buffalo/Opus/PWD/etc), R2R DACs (AGD/my own stuff/etc), cheap TT rigs (that 12 year old at meets), expensive TT rigs (shaizada), reel to reel (ironbut/DocB/etc): the grain is ALWAYS there. Is it still possible that the HD800 is simply revealing the grain of all that stuff? Yes, but chances are very slim. In order to determine that this is the case, there would have to be a rig that exhibits no grain with the HD800 plugged into it. If you're saying the HD800 doesn't inherently have grain then you must have heard a rig that has no grain in order to make such a claim. Maybe it's something I haven't heard, and in that case I'd love to give this rig a listen at a future meet. As it stands, I've never heard such a rig which is why I'm sticking with my position that the HD800 has inherent grain.

I think some people are talking about a different kind of grain or something that I'm not referring to, in which case I'd point you to my shout above if you're wondering what type of grain I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with treble or FR. The grain exists over the entire spectrum - all bass, all mids, all highs - similar to bad HD650 rig veil, Audeze impact, or Stax speed. It is very apparent with vocals.

On the topic of smoothness vs graininess: I'm not exactly sure what kind of smoothness you're talking about regarding Stax. I know it's probably hard to describe (I'm having difficulty describing the grain myself) but if you could do so referri ng to sound instead of vision that'd be appreciated. If you're referring to a smoothing of a certain frequency I don't think that really makes sense since there are plenty of dynamics that are smooth in FR and many Stax that are far from it. If you're referring to the clarity of stats (which I think is the case), then I don't agree with the idea of that being a coloration. I don't think it's possible to have a 'fake clarity'. I certainly don't think Stax have a fake clarity, considering they aren't as clear as real life, though they are very clear sounding. Do you guys really think Stax are clearer than real life sounds? I find this as hard to believe as a transducer being "more neutral than RL", "faster than RL", "more detailed than RL", etc. I've never heard grain from the real world, and I'm not talking grainy sounds but rather a grain on top of sound.

If there's something I didn't address let me know...the reply page on this forum gives me a headache!

Solderdude · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2014, 11:50:51 PM »

Maybe the definition of 'grain' should be clarified first before the thread title should say ... resolved:

To me 'grain' is slightly 'sharply-ish' (distorted alike ?) not completely realistic mids (indeed often heard in voices) or cymbals/strings that should sound 'smooth' or 'life-like' but that sound 'coarser' than they should be compared to the real thing.
Overly/hyper detailed (HD800) may not have to be 'grainy' in my book but may border on it.

How do/would others describe 'grain' ?

Anaxilus · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2014, 11:59:42 PM »

Well I've heard it on more than one occasion. Perhaps you meant the Dynahi is your favorite SS amp with the HD800.

On grain with the HD800 versus Stax or smooth versus grain timbre I think you are either missing or just not reading our replies. I really don't see the point of performing a circular debate when information is ignored or glossed over to support your argument. I don't know how to make these points any clearer.

Yes there are tubes that are grainy, yes Ironbutts reel to reel can sound grainy. In fact, first time I heard it with whatever was playing I found it extremely low-fi tbh. I presumed it was the mastering and not the rig. Maybe your Stax didn't pick up on this?

Frank's SS PS SE amp from Canjam 2 years ago also had grain. I mentioned hearing grain on vinyl before and this is the third time I'm saying it. If you are saying none of these things or the others you mentioned had any inherent grain or hash we'll have to seriously agree to disagree.

I also don't define clarity like you do. There's plenty of smooth phones that are veiled and not very resolving. Usually planars IME. Smoothness versus grain is more of a timbre issue to me than 'clarity' as you use it. So the whole Stax clearer than real life is something you seem to have conceived and can understand. The notion escapes me personally.

Everything you seem to be asking about over and over seems to have been addressed a few times. I'm not sure what else can be added to improve the dialogue.

Anaxilus · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2014, 12:04:21 AM »

Quote from: Solderdude on December 27, 2014, 11:50:51 PM

Maybe the definition of 'grain' should be clarified first before the thread title should say ... resolved:

I'm not using it as is normally understood in common vernacular. It's a common use statement in practiced dialectics. The first sentence of the first post also asks for definitions.

verb (used with object), resolved, resolving.

1. to come to a definite or earnest decision about; determine (to do something):
"I have resolved that I shall live to the full."

2. to separate into constituent or elementary parts; break up; cause or disintegrate (usually followed by into).

3. to reduce or convert by, or as by, breaking up or disintegration (usually followed by to or into).

4. to convert or transform by any process (often used reflexively).

5. to reduce by mental analysis (often followed by into).

6. to settle, determine, or state in a formal vote or formal expression of opinion or intention, as of a deliberative assembly.

7. to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve:
"to resolve the question before the board."

I've been talking about at least two versions of grain the whole time and possibly a lot more depending on how one wants to perform the ontology.

OJneg · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2014, 01:35:23 AM »

n3rdling: Would you mind pointing out some recordings that you like to use for reference? Maybe something you like that you consider very grainy, something middle of the road, and then something you believe to be very "grain-free".

gurubhai · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2014, 01:46:43 AM »

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
N3rd and I are talking about 'information' that dynamics might be adding to the sound.
Anax is talking about something that the stats may be missing.
We are definitely not on the same page.I don't even see why these two statements should be mutually exclusive,
It is entirely possible that both views are correct .
OJ seems to be of that opinion though he finds hd800 to be closer to the real thing.
Anetode already has the answer. Why have a battle between stats and dynamics, when its the Orthos that are ruling the world!

n3rdling · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2014, 02:21:22 AM »

Quote from: Anaxilus on December 27, 2014, 11:59:42 PM

Well I've heard it on more than one occasion. Perhaps you meant the Dynahi is your favorite SS amp with the HD800.

On grain with the HD800 versus Stax or smooth versus grain timbre I think you are either missing or just not reading our replies. I really don't see the point of performing a circular debate when information is ignored or glossed over to support your argument. I don't know how to make these points any clearer.

Yes there are tubes that are grainy, yes Ironbutts reel to reel can sound grainy. In fact, first time I heard it with whatever was playing I found it extremely low-fi tbh. I presumed it was the mastering and not the rig. Maybe your Stax didn't pick up on this? Frank's SS PS SE amp from Canjam 2 years ago also had grain. I mentioned hearing grain on vinyl before and this is the third time I'm saying it. If you are saying none of these things or the others you mentioned had any inherent grain or hash we'll have to seriously agree to disagree.

I also don't define clarity like you do. There's plenty of smooth phones that are veiled and not very resolving. Usually planars IME. Smoothness versus grain is more of a timbre issue to me than 'clarity' as you use it. So the whole Stax clearer than real life is something you seem to have conceived and can understand. The notion escapes me personally.

Everything you seem to be asking about over and over seems to have been addressed a few times. I'm not sure what else can be added to improve the dialogue.

You've never heard me say the Dynahi is my fav amp for the HD800 because I'd never say it. I've said it's my favorite SS amp, my favorite amp for orthos, and possibly said it's my favorite dynamic amp. As a specific pairing with the HD800? Uh, no.

I read the smooth vs grain and gave my reply about why I didn't think that made sense. If you disagree, fine, but I'm not purposely ignoring anything. I'm not posting to win an argument, I'm posting because this is a subject that doesn't come up much and I want to know if others hear grain the same as I do.

My purpose in listing all those rigs wasn't to determine how much grain each has, but rather to setup my point that without hearing a HD800 rig without grain it's damn hard to prove the HD800 doesn't inherently have grain. If you've heard such a HD800 rig, again, I'd like to listen to it or at least know what it is as it'd single-handedly refute everything I'm saying.

Quote from: OJneg on December 28, 2014, 01:35:23 AM

n3rdling: Would you mind pointing out some recordings that you like to use for reference? Maybe something you like that you consider very grainy, something middle of the road, and then something you believe to be very "grain-free".

This isn't something that's on the recording, but rather added on top of it by the headphone. I'm talking about a coloration (the grain) that's present no matter the source or amp, and is usually more present as the HP quality goes down.

OJneg · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2014, 02:27:41 AM »

Quote from: n3rdling on December 28, 2014, 02:21:22 AM

This isn't something that's on the recording, but rather added on top of it by the headphone. I'm talking about a coloration (the grain) that's present no matter the source or amp, and is usually more present as the HP quality goes down.

Ok, then present me with an amazing grain-free recording and it should sound slightly grainy on my "technically incapable" HD800 rig. I don't have any Stax to compare here but I suspect the essence of the effect will be there for me.

Author Topic: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference? (Read 4556 times)

RexAeterna

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

Anaxilus

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

n3rdling

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

Solderdude

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

Anaxilus

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

Anaxilus

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

OJneg

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

gurubhai

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

n3rdling

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

OJneg

Re: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference?

(adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({});

Author Topic: Resolved: Driver grain v. smoothness - Empirical fact or subj. preference? (Read 4556 times)