CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:07:54 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?  (Read 3156 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

takato14

  • Designated furfag on deck
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +85/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 446
  • Likes it fuzzy
"Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« on: October 27, 2014, 12:53:39 AM »

Is it a function of low distortion, decay characteristics, attack characteristics, or is there something more to it that cannot be seen in measurements?
Logged
This industry is really fucking broken

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 02:25:35 AM »

It's like the Force. Can't be measured. No one believed in the midi-chlorian tricorder thing anyways.
Logged

namaiki

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +1/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 04:17:18 AM »

Is this supposed to be a headphone thing, or mainly a DAC or amp thing? I guess all...

I've been blindly looking about it a bit. For headphones, could it have anything to do with being able to have a frequency response that is free of spikes and that is together (preferably flat) as much as possible?

If you look at the "raw data" for the HD800 here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800B.pdf you can see that the FR can generally be followed in a curve for most of it, though most just have a treble spike which will cover a bit but perhaps not all of the treble spectrum: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT250250.pdf

AKGs are pretty cool like this with the treble as well: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK712.pdf

(I realise reported treble response can vary a lot with different measurement methods though...)

I guess quick decay is great as well. No idea how you could check attack on a graph.

Honestly, over all no idea but I would like to find out.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:47:14 AM by namaiki »
Logged

Anaxilus

  • Phallus Belligerantus Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3493
  • TRS jacks must die
    • The Claw
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 05:02:08 AM »

Is this supposed to be a headphone thing, or mainly a DAC or amp thing? I guess all...

I've been blindly looking about it a bit. For headphones, could it have anything to do with being able to have a frequency response that is free of spikes and that is together (preferably flat) as much as possible?

If you look at the "raw data" for the HD800 here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800B.pdf you can see that the FR can generally be followed in a curve for most of it, though most just have a treble spike which will cover a bit but perhaps not all of the treble spectrum: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT250250.pdf

AKGs are pretty cool like this with the treble as well: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK712.pdf

(I realise reported treble response can vary a lot with different measurement methods though...)

I guess quick decay is great as well. No idea how you could check attack on a graph.

Honestly, over all no idea but I would like to find out.

I think it has nothing to do with frequency response.  Especially since some certain amps do better than others with this and they all measure flat.  No AKGs or Beyers come close to the HD800 retrieval either.  Decay is helpful but not all of the equation.  SS and Imaging is important as well.
Logged
"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." - Lao Tzu

"The Claw is our master. The Claw chooses who will go or who will stay." - The LGM Community

"You're like a dull knife, just ain't cuttin'. Talking loud, saying nothing." - James Brown

Tachikoma

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +4/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 61
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 05:41:21 AM »

"Micro-detail" could be classified as very small signals, so its related to sensitivity perhaps? You could take the fourier transform of an audio signal, compare the output of a headphone/amp/dac to the original, and see how well the (arbitarily) low amplitude components are reproduced by the setup, perhaps. Distortion would certainly limit the reproducibility of small signals.

Soundstage/imaging probably has a lot to do with phase matching between the drivers... but that's just my guess.
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 06:00:07 AM »

Is it a function of low distortion, decay characteristics, attack characteristics, or is there something more to it that cannot be seen in measurements?

IMO (but am told am mostly very wrong about it) it has to do with low distortion, fast decay characteristics, fast attack characteristics, frequency range, 'flatness' in the treble area.
I suspect it has a lot to do with 'break-up' in the driver membrane/cone as well as membrane weigth + motor force.
Perhaps cone break-up could be made 'visible' with a very high speed camera + strobelight.
Another aspect is pads and acoustics.
Most of this is difficult to prove in plots but I feel spiky treble may be a sign for it.
I am also convinced it can be measured BUT not with simple THD and FR measurements and one has to have an entire suite of measurements. All of these must be judged in relation, not on 1 or 2 aspects.
'micro-detail' is basically a very small signal (excursion) superimposed on larger swings of the rest of the signal and the driver must have the ability to accurately 'follow' those.
Unfortunately small signals are ALWAYS masked by larger ones on ANY type of absolute value measurements and thus cannot be made visible that easily.

Also needle impulses tell a lot but perhaps the plot should not be linear but have a log type amplitude scale as our hearing is log and not linear.
For the same reason scope pictures of a sinewave aren't really enlightening when looking for small THD values.
If you can see it, it is VERY measurable and audible as well.

When looking at innerfidelity plots you must realise that everything above say 1kHz must not be considered as 'flat'.
Meaning treble that is at '0dB' in these plots is a peak far above '0dB' in reality.
So above 1kHz the treble 'energy' in the plots isn't accurate in an absolute sense.
He re-did a few plots with 'Olive Welti' correction and these were more accurate IMO but he would have to re-do loads of pdf's which IMO isn't worth the effort.
This is due to chosen corrections.
Of course his plots (pdf's) are excellent in any other aspect and are very valuable for comparing relative to the other plots.

The plots on this site (as well as GE IMHO) are more accurate in treble 'level' relative to low/mids.
But you have to realise that ALL acoustical measurements can be/are 'off' in an absolute and even relative sense due to lots of acoustic errors/compromises.
Take ALL acoustic measurements with a grain of salt, an indicative measurement at best that may be of help if you know how to interpret all relevant measurements TOGETHER.

Just my opinion of course.
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

Hands

  • Pizza the Hutt
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +331/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1591
  • Master of Revelatory Bird Calls and Fine Art
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 07:01:51 AM »

This is just my opinion on it, and not based on any sort of real study or analysis, but I think there may be a correlation between these subjective, technical qualities and headphones that measure well in some of the more important areas, if not measure well in all areas. i.e. good frequency response, low distortion, fast impulse response, fast and clean decay, etc. Of course, I'm betting there are headphones that act as counter examples to this. While I don't think there's any one measurement or subset of measurements that explain qualities like micro-detail retrieval, if all possible HP measurements are taken as a whole, you might get part of the way there.

Now, DACs and amps seem to be a different beast. I've heard DACs that measure quite similarly but have different subjective characteristics and technical strengths, to the point where it would be hard to correlate measurements with what you hear subjectively. I'm sure with new, expanded, and/or "deeper" tests and measurements, we might be able to uncover measurable traits that account for these subjective differences. Maybe. I'm sure there are a lot of hypothetical areas that try to explain these subjective traits with measurements that are worth exploring.
Logged
The other master and I invite you to visit our digital museum of fine art and revelatory bird calls: https://www.facebook.com/SchrodsonkMuseum

Tachikoma

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +4/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 61
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 02:29:23 PM »

'micro-detail' is basically a very small signal (excursion) superimposed on larger swings of the rest of the signal and the driver must have the ability to accurately 'follow' those.
Unfortunately small signals are ALWAYS masked by larger ones on ANY type of absolute value measurements and thus cannot be made visible that easily.

We could create a signal that has say, a 1khz component with amplitude X, and a 1.01khz component with amplitude Y, and keep decreasing the amplitude of the next component until we hit the point where the lowest amplitude component cannot be reproduced correctly.
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2014, 03:37:16 PM »

I think headphones (speakers) have more difficulties with impulse alike signals than one or more continuous (sinewave) signals.
That's where the 'pain' in measurements lies.
Music consists mainly of multiple (sinewave alike) impulses with resonances behind them and associated harmonics not of continuous sine waves, perfect needles or squarewaves.
The test signals will most likely have to be more impulse related.

I think continuous sinewaves can tell something about linearity (distortion) and frequency response.

I don't think it will be easy to create a test that will give us a number of how good it can reproduce small signals superimposed on larger signals over the entire frequency range and with impulse like properties.

Nulling isn't an option here as timing, phase and amplitude variations are all converted to amplitude and cannot be told apart any more due to the plethora of unwanted signals.
Analysing such a signal would be pointless.
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

OJneg

  • Audio Ayatollah / Wow and Fluster
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +120/-3
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1245
Re: "Plankton", "Micro-Detail", etc?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2014, 03:48:14 PM »

'micro-detail' is basically a very small signal (excursion) superimposed on larger swings of the rest of the signal and the driver must have the ability to accurately 'follow' those.
Unfortunately small signals are ALWAYS masked by larger ones on ANY type of absolute value measurements and thus cannot be made visible that easily.

We could create a signal that has say, a 1khz component with amplitude X, and a 1.01khz component with amplitude Y, and keep decreasing the amplitude of the next component until we hit the point where the lowest amplitude component cannot be reproduced correctly.

I wouldn't suspect this test to be terribly indicative of perceived microdetail. The FFT binning and noise floor of the measurement system would dominate.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3