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Author Topic: Various DACs compared (growing list), digital filter/ringing thoughts, etc.  (Read 5455 times)

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Hands

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2014, 05:13:40 PM »

Well, it's not in-depth, but based on what I've listened to and written about, I'd rank them as follows in terms of low-level resolution abilities:

X-Sabre >> Mini-I >~ Gamma2 (Filter C) > Gamma2 (Filter B) > Hex with MP upsampling (or most other upsampling methods) > Hex

Didn't test it against the NOS1704. We'll see if I can do more in-depth tests around resolving abilities before I have to ship the Matrix DACs off, but that'll be tough since my "weekend" is over now, and since I'll have to ship them Monday morning. I might also go crazy if I keep doing DAC listening tests!
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fishski13

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2014, 10:27:05 PM »

you should be able to get a gamma2 easily new.  just contact Mister-X on the AMB website.  very reasonable price the last i heard.
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fishski13

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 10:15:15 PM »

other than my occasional failed attempts to troll Anax and crapping on the HD800, i haven't posted much impressions of gear here.  since my preferences and priorities are largely unknown to pirates, i should give some beta on my hi-fi rig and gears, hopefully adding some context to my impressions of the Matrix DACs.

my day to day cans are the AD2000 and Don-modded T50RP.  HPs are personal but i think my tastes are fairly catholic.  while i do have some hang ups, as long as freq response is reasonably flat and music has a decent sense of rhythm and drive, i'm probably going to be happy.  everything else is icing on the cake.  i have a love/hate relationship with the HD800.  i'm on the fence with commercial orthos, having only listened in meet environments, but would like to spend more time with them in chez fishski situ.  i've also really enjoyed time with Tode's Stax.  maybe someday i'll go down that rabbit hole.   

a number of DACs have made their way through my mancave in the past year: Lavry DA11, Stello Sig., y1/y2, BM DAC1 w/MF V-link, ODAC, and Gungnir.  the BM DAC1 was getting pretty unremarkable after 6 years of ownership.  while the y2 is a great DAC, i need a balanced DAC for balanced builds and it was a toss-up between the Lavry and Schiit.  i ended up buying a Gungnir USBv2.  i think the Lavry bested it in some hi-fi respects, but i ultimately got sucked in by the more engaging musical qualities of the Gungnir. 

the B22 has been my reference amplifier for more than 5 years.  it's been through a few changes over the years, "tuned" so to speak, trying to eek out the best.  i'm most comfortable using the B22 for evaluating other gears, knowing it's strengths and weaknesses.  the QRV-08 is a recent addition that easily resolves differences in DACs, offering a different presentation from the B22.  depending on mood or pairings, i will reach for the Swede.  i wish i had a KSA-5 Klone build lying around, but i sold it to fund a SuSy Dynahi that i currently have planked-out.  the Dyn is a bit of an outlier, being unfamiliar to me, only on a pine plank with a mess of hook-up wires, and wired only for balanced, leaving me only the K701 and D2000 for balanced, neither of which are in regular rotation on my noggin. 

Mini-i
i liked the Mini-i as a stand-alone DAC driving and amp/HP combo.  while not the most resolving and a bit grainy sounding, the freq response was linear from top to bottom.  not the blackest background or the best instrument separation either, but dynamics were good and music was always engaging.  a warm, fatigue free sonic signature making it better suited to pairing with the AD2000 or K701 rather than the T50RP.  while there was an apparent loss in instrument separation and fine "airy" detail compared to X-Sabre, i think the Mini-i had better timbre/tone and was the more balanced sounding DAC.  it had a "cut from the same cloth" sound that wasn't fussy and played well everything.  kind of like owning a Golden Retriever.   

i wasn't terribly impressed when driving HPs directly in comparison to using a dedicated amp.  there was a loss in resolution and dynamics were pretty lifeless and flat, but you can't have everything for $380.  but i think considering the excellent UI, cute form function/chassis, and balanced operation, the Mini-i strikes me as a good value as a stand-alone DAC.     

X-Sabre
while i really liked liked the treble, instrument separation, black background, and soundstaging, (probably the best i've heard in these respects), this DAC doesn't rock on the same porch as my musical preferences.  my biggest complaint was a failure of the bass to integrate into the sonic cloth, sounding bloated/wooly , slow and behind the beat.   timing sounded smeared.  musical flow and drive are important to me and i had a hard time listening for more than 30min with some pairings.         

the X-Sabre was always liquid, smooth and fatigue free, but lacking in timbre/tone.  while the X-Sabre brought new spatial cues and "detail" to recordings, i can't say that it's really all that resolving of timbre.  instruments could sometimes have a synthetic, artificial taste.  classical, especially chamber, and jazz suffered.  despite this, the K701 made for a good pairing.  we all know that the AKG can be rough around the edges, but for whatever reason i felt the X-Sabre helped ameliorate the AKG's shortcomings and generally like the pairing with the Swede and Dyn.

i really liked the soundstaging and the instrument separation.  the mids on upwards had a clear, clean, open sound that made it easier to pick out instruments in the mix.  this was obvious with any HP/amp pairing and a clear cut above the Gungnir.   

i'm not chasing absolute neutrality or unicorns.  whatever floats your boat is the absolute best.  i just didn't completely pine to the X.

a huge friggin' thanks to Maxvla for the extended audition.  i really appreciate your generosity.     
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Maxvla

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 11:46:28 PM »

Hmm, too bad you couldn't hook up HD800s with the dynahi and sabre. I could have included my balanced cable if I'd have known. That combo should be really special.
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fishski13

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2014, 12:26:22 AM »

i don't own the HD800 but had Tode's pair here on extended loan a couple of times.

i think the Dyn might actually fix the issues i have with the HD800, or at least downgrade them to niggles.  while a very different sonic presentation, i think the Liquid Cobalt would be another, and probably pair well with the X.
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Maxvla

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2014, 12:35:16 AM »

Oh, sorry. I thought you had 800s. IMO, the X-Sabre and HD800 are a perfect match, as if built for each other.
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Hands

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Re: X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, NOS1704, Gamma2, filter/ringing thoughts, etc.
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2014, 04:17:55 AM »

Nice, thanks for the impressions! I have some quick thoughts to share on the PWD MK1 vs. NFB-3.2...just been lazy and haven't posted them, haha.
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Hands

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PWD MK1 vs NFB-3.2, NFB-3.2 vs NOS-1704
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2014, 01:36:44 PM »

Well, I've been sitting on my notes for about a month now, and I should stop putting this off.  :))

I picked up a used Audio-GD NFB-3.2 locally for $150. Quite the deal, in my mind, for how it sounds. It's not a technical masterpiece, but it has some really nice traits that makes it something I dig quite a bit. For now, I think I'm just going to stick with my NOS-1704 as my main DAC. I also no longer have the PWD MK1 on hand.

PWD MK1 vs. NFB-3.2

Both of these DACs have selectable filters, though the NFB-3.2 has more diversity in that regard. I set them as close as possible, with the NFB-3.2 at 8x OS, minimum-phase and the PWD MK1 on one of its MP filters. I believe it was filter 3, but it appears I forgot to make note of that. This was with 16/44.1 material.

The PWD MK1 had a noticeably cleaner, more spacious sound than the NFB-3.2. In terms of layering, it just was not even a fair fight for the PWD. The NFB-3.2 had a tendency to sound looser and less well-defined compared to the PWD. However, the NFB-3.2 also had a more rich and powerful sound than the PWD. For example, where the bass drum might have a more present and clean kick to it on the PWD, the NFB-3.2 gave it a bit more power and life at the expense of sounding less focused. Occasionally, I thought the NFB-3.2 had better echo and decay properties, even though the PWD always sounded more spacious.

The NFB-3.2 seemed to have a slightly more black background and darker tonality than the PWD. The PWD was more detailed and resolving sounding, and in general it sounded less laid-back. In regards to this and the details in the last paragraph, the NFB-3.2 would start to become more and more congested sounding and less controlled with complex material. Where as the NFB-3.2 was generally more euphonic and lively for me, the PWD sounded better composed, if maybe a touch on the lean side.

On some of my harsher tracks, the PWD sounded noticeably more hashy than the NFB-3.2 Indeed, the NFB-3.2 was almost always the smoother sounding DAC of the two, and I tended to prefer its tonality and timbre.

Don't get me wrong...all of the Wolfson-based DACs I've tried recently carry this certain agreeable quality to them relative to some of the other delta-sigma chips/DACs I've sampled. The PWD was not my favorite among the three, including Gamma2 and NFB-3.2, but it had some characteristics that it really excelled at.

Now, given the choice, I run 2x or 4x OS filters on the NFB-3.2. I generally use the 2x, minimum phase, soft-knee filter, and I wanted to compare that setting against the PWD as well. As I guessed, the differences were more striking. The NFB-3.2 was a good deal more laid-back sounding than the PWD, but it didn't lose much in the way of resolving power or liveliness. I thought this filter setting on the NFB-3.2 gave it a better sense of presence and rhythm, and the PWD did sound flatter in terms of liveliness, swing, and dynamics in comparison. I summed it up in my notes by saying the NFB-3.2 was more about presence and the PWD was more about precision, whatever that means.

NFB-3.2 vs NOS-1704

For this comparison, I set the NFB-3.2 to filter 1 (2x, MP, soft-knee). This most closely matched the NOS-1704's performance. This test was particularly interesting to me, given A) I really like the sound of these two DACs, especially if the NFB-3.2 is on F1, and B) the NFB-3.2 on F1 is probably the closest I've seen and heard a delta-sigma DAC match the traits of an R2R NOS DAC.

The first thing I noticed was the bass presentation. The NOS-1704 produced bass pitch and texture the NFB-3.2 simply could not match. Then again, I d o believe I've most preferred how this DAC handles bass. On a particular track, the bass guitar had an amazing sense of growl to it on the NOS1704. The NOS1704 was overall a smoother sounding DAC. It was a touch less detailed and resolving, though still much closer to any of the delta-sigma DACs than the Metrums.

On the other hand, the NOS-1704 had a mushier, more intimate, less clear quality to it than the NFB-3.2. The NFB-3.2 was more spacious sounding and had better separation between everything. Yet, despite sounding a bit more 3-dimensional, the NFB-3.2 still did not do as well with layering. The NOS-1704 has more tangible, more realistic sounding vocals. The NFB-3.2 had a blacker background and was perhaps a touch more dynamic, except for how it handled bass.

With all of the filter options, I thought the NFB-3.2 was a very well-balanced DAC, though on the smoother side. I'm very curious to hear the newer, Wolfson-based Audio-GD DACs.

I've decided to use the NOS-1704 as my primary DAC for now. It best captures the "feeling" and "emotion" of music for me, though the Hex was also excellent (had to sell it for moving money). It is on the smoother side, but unlike the Metrums, it is better with details and has better distortion performance. Jumping back to delta-sigma DACs tends to give me a slightly more sterile, slightly leaner and flatter quality that, in the end, outweighs the other desirable traits that seem inherent to them. I'm not sure what I would think of an oversampled R2R design and where that would fit into this mix, though I'd love to experiment with an R2R DAC with selectable filters, if one exists.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 02:06:11 PM by hans030390 »
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OJneg

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Hans, looks like you have a good set of DACs for reference in your collection. Would you mind me sending you some of my DAC creations/bastardizations in the future?
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Hands

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I am more than happy to listen to any DAC, especially custom ones! Well, I say that now. I'd send more of my own DACs out on loaner tours for all if shipping didn't add up so quickly.
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