CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: Various DACs compared (growing list), digital filter/ringing thoughts, etc.  (Read 5455 times)

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Hands

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Hans you're right on.  I've said it over and over again that I tend to avoid upsampling exactly because of that transient dulling effect.  That effect is definitely an undesirable coloration to my ears despite the benefits.  For me the cure is worse than the disease in that case.

Yep, I wasn't quite sure what you meant before when you brought up these points, but I now see where you're coming from and can definitely appreciate it. It's been beneficial for me to try out all these upsampling methods on a NOS DAC, as it's sort-of-but-not-quite a blank slate to work with and better allows the various upsampling methods to come through.

Can you tell us how long the XSabre was powered on for before you made your impressions?

Hm, maybe a half hour or so. But I listened for a couple hours at least, and I can't say I noticed any character changes on the X-Sabre. If a warm up affecting sound is something that stood out in particular with the X-Sabre for others, I'd be happy to test for that. Not sure I'd be able to tell a real difference, though.

Try the JK on the X-Sabre. I know Marv says the USB on the X-Sabre was good enough to not benefit much from the offramp, but you might as well try it while you have it. As far as time, it is up to fish. I just need to have it back by May 2nd for the Dallas meet on May 4th.

OK, I'll give it a shot! I also wanted to try upsampling and PCM->DSD on the X-Sabre. I'll figure out timing and shipping stuff when I have a better idea when OJ's shipment will arrive.

Really nice Hans, thanks for the impressions.Just to be clear you guys are talking about software upsampling?  Is the attack better in a NOS DAC vs one that upsamples?  I am intrigued by what you said about the Hex's ability to delineate sounds.  One of the things that drives me crazy is when all music sounds legato (and I know it isn't).I have settled on 4x upsampling with my Anedio D2 through Jriver to give it a smoother more liquid sound.  Transient response and attack doesn't seem to be affected too much.  The treble graininess with the D2 was too much for me so I had to compromise.  I am trying to decide what DAC path to go down.  Reading about the Hex from someone I trust was very helpful (i.e. not Slabadam Arjans)

For the Hex, I'm talking about various software upsampling methods. HQPlayer has a lot of types you can play around with, some of which ma de the Hex sound surprisingly different. Subtle in the grand scheme of things, of course, but very interesting to listen for. Upsampling methods without ringing do exist, and I believe they can give you some of the benefits of upsampling (better FR, lower distortion, etc.) without messing with transients based on my subjective tests. Well, and I did verify with measurements that upsampling methods without ringing can improve FR, distortion, etc.

For OS DACs, I'm not the best person to explain the conceptual or technical difference between upsampling and oversampling, and researching the differences often ends up with me being lost! I basically mushed them together here because I was focusing more on my thoughts on how filter ringing from either might affect what we hear. I do like software upsampling for its flexibility and variety, though I only really utilize it sometimes with NOS DACs depending on my mood.

With what DACs I've compared the Hex against and with my upsampling tests, I think filters without ringing or just a tiny bit of post-ringing do a better job with quick attacks, i.e. detail in the time domain. To me, I tend to find this more subtly engaging than perhaps having better detail in terms of frequency and lack of distortion, yet it is also difficult to pinpoint exactly what makes it more engaging. I kind of thought of it as a difference between being laid-back with transients/attacks or laid-back with frequencies and related resolution abilities. For me, it's a win-win-win...I'm not too concerned about crazy resolving abilities, I like the treble roll-off for helping with listening fatigue, and I like the difference I think I hear with transients.

I do want to stress that the differences I noticed with leading attacks and transients were within the realm of being placebo, at least with software upsampling on the Hex. Audibly, it's down there on the list compared to other changes to the sound, but I think within the bounds to be important for some (not all). You would have to try a NOS DAC for yourself to see what you think, but it can be difficult at times to separate that out from NOS's other imperfections, depending on the implementation. As for JRiver's upsampling, I actually think it sounds pretty good. I haven't yet tested to see what sort of ringing it has, but JRMC as a whole has a nice consistency to its sound that other software can lack (HQPlayer seems solid so far as well). Keep in mind I also had to spend a lot of time listening for this stuff and might have actually just made myself slightly crazy more than anything else. ;)
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Anaxilus

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I forgot to mention, if my memory isn't completely horrible, polynomial or something similar was my preferred filter on the Invicta as well.  Didn't change the fact it still sounded like an Invicta though.  :P
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fishski13

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Max, i'm in no rush to hear the DACs.  i would like a week with both of them though. 
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Maxvla

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OK, so assuming ground shipping they need to be on their way here by the 28-29th-ish. I'd guess they need to be shipped to fish by the 15th or so.
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OJneg

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Not sure, why hans didn't get my PM, but I'm going to send 'em tomorrow. That should give him a weekend + change to listen to all of them side-by-side.
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Hands

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Works out perfectly! I am in the process of writing up thoughts on the Mini-I, which I have to say I am fond of now, and some other junk like the NOS1704 that I recently dusted off.
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Hands

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Matrix Mini-I (w/ dual AD1955s) Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2014, 08:03:02 AM »

I took some time to further test out the Mini-I, X-Sabre, and Hex, and I dragged out the NOS-1704 to add to the comparisons. I had not yet done a proper Hex vs. NOS-1704 comparison, and I’m glad I finally sat down to do that. I should have done it earlier, but being able to test out other DACs before doing so has been a valuable experience and, from what I can tell, helps make picking out DAC differences a bit easier. I'll post about that next.

Matrix Mini-I DAC Thoughts, Comparisons
The Mini-I (with dual AD1955s) seems like a really nice, solid product overall, enough so that I felt I should just say that up front. For $380, I believe, you get a good-looking, minimalist DAC that feels well-built, has balanced and unbalanced outputs, has a nice selection of digital inputs, has a headphone amp, and has excellent specs on paper. I found it very intuitive and easy to use. It’s very hard to complain with what you get in this package for this price.

Now, how does it sound? Well, certainly more similar to the X-Sabre than the Hex, that’s for sure. I found it did not have the resolving abilities of the X-Sabre, but it was clear it was picking up on details that the Hex smoothed over. The treble had a smoother, more natural sounding quality than the X-Sabre, and was thus easier to listen to for long sessions. It was still not quite as smooth sounding as the Hex, though not quite as lean and artificial as the X-Sabre. Though more clear and well-defined in terms of individual elements of the music than the Hex, I’d still give the edge to the X-Sabre here. Going back to my comment about how the X-Sabre made acoustic finger picking sound too much like it was just…pick picking, I found the Mini-I to sound more natural (sounded like finger picking) but still thinner sounding than the Hex (certainly more detailed). I preferred the treble and tone of the Mini-I over the X-Sabre, and I enjoyed that it was more laid-back. You may feel differently.

Soundstaging and imaging on the Mini-I gave a noticeable sense of clarity and space between everything compared to the Hex at the expense of reducing the sense of body and presence to musical elements. It was harder to tell differences against the X-Sabre in this regard, but, if memory serves me right, the X-Sabre was a little more spacious sounding. Vocals sounded a bit more organic on the Mini-I over the X-Sabre, but it didn't quite reach the Hex.

The X-Sabre was a bit more dynamic than the Mini-I. It was harder for me to tell differences in terms of bass texture and pitch, so I’ll refrain from commenting on that. I felt neither of the two DACs matched the Hex in terms of rhythm and attacks/transients, or capturing the micro-swings and beats of the music, but I might give an edge to the X-Sabre here over the Mini-I. Again, the Mini-I was more laid-back than the X-Sabre in multiple ways, so that makes sense.

All-in-all, I found the Mini-I to be enjoyable to listen to as a DAC. For the most part, just take that it sounded smoother, more natural/organic, more laid-back, and less resolving than the X-Sabre, but was still quite good overall. Very little to complaint about. For the most part, many thoughts I had between the X-Sabre and the Hex also apply to the Mini-I vs. the Hex.

Mini-I Headphone Amp
The headphone amp on the Mini-I also worked well. It was neutral and did a decent job powering the T50RP. The HE-500 also sounded good, but you could tell it was a bit strained. The amp was a bit flat and not particularly exciting sounding, not particularly excelling with soundstaging, dynamics, liquidity, and most other areas. It didn't really do anything wrong, either. The Vali sounded fuller, livelier, more liquid, and gave the impression of clearer and more details up top.

Overall, the Mini-I’s headphone amp is neutral, doesn't excel or do poorly in are as, and works decently well for all but the more demanding headphones. Given the price of the Mini-I, it’s hard to complain for what you’re getting in one relatively compact box. Gotta say that I really like this product overall.
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Hands

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NOS-1704, Hex Comparison and Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2014, 08:12:52 AM »

Audio-GD NOS-1704 Returns
To be completely honest, I barely touched the NOS1704 after getting the Hex. And that wasn't particularly fair to it, because I never took the proper time to compare them back-to-back. It’s not all bad, though, because I felt my recent experience with multiple DACs and experiments with various upsampling methods on the Hex were valuable experiences and helped me better differentiate between subtle aspects of DACs (or inflate my confidence enough to think I could!). This turned out to be particularly interesting in the end.

Let’s start with the similarities between the Hex and NOS1704. First, they are both NOS DACs, so they sound horrible. They both had a smooth, liquid sound compared to the other DACs. The soundstage and space were more condensed than the other DACs, giving everything a more intimate, immediate feel (in some cases, greater focus to my ears). Various elements of music had more body and presence to them, though that probably ties together with my last statement. The top-most details are a bit rolled, but neither lacked extension. Both seem to excel with the rhythm and attack/transient junk I mentioned a bit earlier and are more engaging to listen to relative to the other DACs. They seemingly have the best tone and timbre out of the bunch.

As for differences, I thankfully felt much more adept in differentiating now than I did when comparing the NOS1704 to the Metrum Quad. Almost immediately, the Hex lacked detail relative to the NOS1704. The difference was almost as stark as when I compared the Hex to the Mini-I. The NOS1704 was noticeably more resolving. However, that did give the sense of everything sounding slightly thinner and leaner. Looking back to my measurements (which I really need to update, as my posted NOS1704 ones are too “noisy”), this might be partially explained by the much lower harmonic and intermodulation distortion on the NOS1704.

Elements of music on the NOS1704 were more clearly defined and had a better sense of space between them, but the Hex gave the individual elements themselves a larger sense of space, size, or presence at the expense of having less clearly defined soundstaging and imaging. The body and presence the Hex gives to individual elements of the music was generally pleasing to my ears. I felt it worked very well with vocals, giving them a sort of weight, intimacy, breathy quality that the other DACs did not. It also fleshed out drums and, sometimes, cymbals in a positive way (sometimes not resolving enough), though guitars in rock and metal sometimes sounded a bit too mushy. The NOS1704 gave them a better sense of “crunch” and detail. In a way, the Hex had more of an earthy quality to it than the other DACs…perhaps grayer sounding than the NOS1704. The NOS1704 is a bit darker sounding than the Hex, and it is slightly more rolled at the very top despite sounding more detailed. The NOS1704 might have had the best bass pitch and texture out of the DACs tested so far.

The Hex was still noticeably more laid-back than the NOS1704, though not in terms of dynamics and punch and despite having a touch more air up top. For all its deficiencies relative to other DACs, I simply love how I can just melt into the sound of the Hex. It’s not that it’s warm or super euphonic. If anything, it has a unique sort of effortless quality that makes it very pleasing and easy to listen to. I think MuppetFace described it well by saying, “It's definitely NOT a DAC with a ‘wow factor’ from what I can tell. It makes absolutely no effort to try and win you over.” That said, the NOS1704 was still more laid-back than the Mini-I or X-Sabre. Smoother might actually be a better word than laid-back for the NOS1704, actually. The NOS1704 was sort of a nice blend between the positive aspects of the Hex and Mini-I, roughly. If you didn't find the Hex resolving enough or too smooth overall, but still want to go R 2R/NOS, the NOS1704 is a great choice. But if resolving abilities and absolute detail aren't a big concern, there is a lot to like about the Hex, and it has some unique characteristics.

I’m glad I picked up the NOS1704 when I did, and my rapid increase in DAC experiences over the past few months have made it easier for me to appreciate it (thanks to all that have loaned out gear!). I don’t believe Audio-GD sells these anymore (limited run), but they were priced well and sound quite good from what I’m hearing.

One potential downside to the NOS1704 is that it has some background noise that is audible if you turn up the volume (depending on amp, headphones, and their sensitivity to the noise). I had a similar experience with the Gungnir, but to a lesser extent. This might affect the NOS1704’s ability to properly resolve very low-level information, but I’m having a hard time verifying that with my simple ADC and would need to familiarize myself with other, better track selections to subjectively verify. However, I believe the NOS1704 is able to exceed what it necessary of 16-bit music. The X-Sabre, Mini-I, Hex, Quad, etc. were all dead silent.

Upcoming
I’ll be testing out the Gamma2 soon. If timing works out, I’ll be able to compare it with the Matrix gear as well. I have some measurements to post very soon for the X-Sabre and Mini-I, but they actually outperform my ADC in most regards.

Misc. Notes
Still not using software upsampling for these tests. All 16/44.1, and that’s safe to assume if I don’t mention it. If I write about upsampling-based comparisons, I’ll be sure to make that clear. I've also made sure to use better gear compared to when I originally tried comparing some DACs, and that helps detect differences as well (am using MD3.2, slightly tweaked, and the HE-500).
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OJneg

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First, they are both NOS DACs, so they sound horrible.

 :)p13
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AustinValentine

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Upcoming
I’ll be testing out the Gamma2 soon. If timing works out, I’ll be able to compare it with the Matrix gear as well. I have some measurements to post very soon for the X-Sabre and Mini-I, but they actually outperform my ADC in most regards.

Great write up Hans, I've really enjoyed reading these. Very impressed with how the Mini-I performed relative to the X-Sabre and Hex. I hope that the Gamma2 timing works out, as the Gamma2, Matrix Mini-I, and the Emotiva DC-1 are more or less the three DAC's I'm considering for retiring my ODAC (i.e. max budget for this move: $450-500). Given their price points, a comparison of the first two would be really helpful.
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