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Author Topic: DAC comparison methodologies  (Read 5925 times)

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Original_Ken

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2014, 06:40:29 PM »


I highly suggest anyone to go to a music store and bang on some drums or listen to someone who is.  Unless you have heard it in person it is very difficult to have a grasp of the correct sound.  Real instruments are very dynamic and can be quite harsh, especially in an enclosed space.  This is why perfect reproduction isn't the be all end all for me...it would get too annoying if you were listening to that all the time. 
This brings up an interesting aspect that has become totally obscure outside of the Pro Audio world - mixing.   In the 60s and 70s, it was clear to most knowledgeable consumers that a studio engineer took a band and made it listenable over a car or table radio.

Nowadays, audiophiles want every instrument to have maximum detail and clarity, and many labels like MFSL provide that - regardless of whether the resulting U-shaped FR destroys the mix (usually by bringing the bass and drums way up over the other instruments).
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Marvey

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2014, 06:46:07 PM »

Yeah... you noticed that too. The MFSL mastered stuff is a little bit too clean and bright. I consider a lot of their stuff "marginal" for that reason. It's good for testing treble issues.
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funkmeister

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2014, 08:02:52 PM »

I'm not sure that comparison validity is called into question because of poor audio "memory" as much as it is that our hearing "adapts" to a large degree. There are, of course, limits to how far we'll adapt our hearing but a simple test to prove the point is to go to Fry's or Best Buy or some place like that and listen to the computer speakers. Slowly move up the line and you won't always find too much of a difference (other than the obvious stuff... be reasonable, folks). Move back down the line and the difference is far more apparent. Subtractive is easier to discern than additive and how people react to it and choose to compare stuff differs because of our reaction to that principle when it plays out.

DACs probably have are rendering the music each differently but in such a way that our hearing adapts and picks up details differently from one to the other more than we can simply measure electronically these days. I think science will eventually be able to demonstrate through measurements the 80% rule in anticipating what things will sound like to us, but we're not there yet. I also believe that most of how we currently measure will remain but have better interpretation.
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Solderdude

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2014, 08:40:26 PM »

These debates usually go nowhere and only P people off.  :)p8

Everyone should feel free to test on their own way and have to admit that I may not do it in a similar way as the 'pirate guru's' but in their defence they always mention HOW they tested and it is up to the reader to decide how valid they think the test is to them.

I feel the gurus here are genuine and have a big heart for audio and what they do, they do out of conviction.
So do hydrogen people and the 'Harolds' in this world.

Heard all the pro and counter arguments of all test methods by now...
IMO: if you like to test as objective as possible you should reach statistical relevance (test long and often enough) and blind (doesn't have to be double blind at all) preferably level matched within 1% (extremely difficult).
One should use revealing transducers and amps that can drive them and use familiar recordings and only change the DUT.

When using crappy recordings and listen out for least 'crappyness' and/or well made recordings and listen out for quality doesn't make much difference.
You NEED to have established a 'reference frame' of how it could/should sound in other words be very familiar with it and having heard it in many different qualities.
It generally helps if you have tested a LOT of equipment with various 'test methods' and then stick to the one(s) you trust most.
That's called experience  :boom:


 popcorn


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Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

ultrabike

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2014, 10:38:19 PM »

It generally helps if you have tested a LOT of equipment with various 'test methods' and then stick to the one(s) you trust most.
That's called experience

^ I like that
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CEE TEE

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2014, 01:03:35 AM »

For me, there are different ways in...

I might be trying to find a component for my system that "fits" or "does what I need" within the context of my systems.

Or: I may do a comparison to a "known" entity and if that is a piece of gear that enough people have, I may share my impressions and they might be extra data points for others.  (In this case, I probably go through a check-list of aspects that follow my priorities at the time.) 

I'm not going down the "reviewer" path.  I'm going down the path of building home and portable systems for my own use PLUS keeping ears out for values/recommendations to others. With regards to values and recos- here I might consider the "overall quality" of a single piece of gear...not necessarily how it would fit into my systems.

Just don't have enough time for putting everything that I have access to through "all the paces".

Those are also reasons to re-visit gear...from a different perspective of experience as well as system/personal priorities.

For those that do any exhaustive comparisons, thank you.  That's a bunch of effort to me.  Sharing it is another thing and following it up is even more.
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anetode

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2014, 01:10:16 AM »

Use volume matching, volume extremes, switchboxes, shitty recordings, blind tests, sighted tests, good recordings, etc. Take an omnivorous approach to DAC evaluation, don't buy into the vegan "controlled testing is evil and kills bunnies" hype. Remember, not getting enough science in your diet will lead to the premature onset of audiophilic senility, cable risers and soft jazz.
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thegunner100

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2014, 01:19:56 AM »

I was originally planning on doing just 1 day of solo comparing and then another day with my friend w/ speakers. But after reading this thread, I may just add another day or two of comparisons, but with different methods to find which one works the best for me. I'll be sure to keep you guys posted on what I find!
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fishski13

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2014, 03:14:32 AM »

volume matching to 0.1-0.2dB between two different amps with a DMM takes me a little under 5min.  if you want to evaluate with multiple recordings and different volumes, it becomes a time consuming task.  kind of wrecks the "flow" of listening and evaluating.  i think differences between gears can be more apparent depending on the volume at which you're listening at, and recording itself, and why i think taking a single recording and evaluating the gears at one volume only is not thorough enough. 

if you're evaluating two different sources with different V-out that cannot be easily adjusted, unlike amplifiers, you're kind of hosed if you want to do quick A/B switches.

i perform line level matching every time i evaluate amplifiers.  it's not perfect, but rather some extra data.  ultimately though, i don't interface with a DMM and SinGen when enjoying music. 
 



   
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The Alchemist

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Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2014, 10:25:49 AM »

I wish I had more DACS to compare with. ALl I have is the Titanium HD soundcard, which has a pretty good DAC for a sound card, and the Bifrost Uber. But i have no idea how to compare them. As of right now, I cannot notice too much of a difference between the two, but the Bifrost Uber is only about a month old so maybe it needs some burn-in time to reach it's full potential.
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