CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:19:51 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

Author Topic: DAC comparison methodologies  (Read 5925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Stapsy

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +21/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 423
  • a real bastid
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 03:10:12 AM »

Great recordings always sound great.  There is a reason why "audiophile" records like Jazz at the Pawnshop are used in demo's by manufacturers.  A marginal recording can tell you more than a great one if you know what the flaws of the recording are.  The example I use in my tests is Someday My Prince Will Come by Miles Davis.  As soon as the trumpet starts I can tell if it is too bright because even the slightest bit of harshness turns the sound into treble razor's of death penetrating my ears.  I think Shipsupt mentioned in another thread that he uses a punk record to test if the instruments can be resolved out of a blur of sound due to the marginal recording.  Anyway the use of a marginal recording is something along those lines.
Logged

OJneg

  • Audio Ayatollah / Wow and Fluster
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +120/-3
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1245
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 03:23:10 AM »

That reminds me. I can't find my damn Stereophile test CD.
Logged

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 03:36:24 AM »

Taylor Swift - Breath - CD

Upper range of vocals can be shrill. On a "100%" correct system, Taylor Swift's voice should be tolerably slightly shrill along with other instruments, especially around the chorus.

My speaker setup is slightly laid back, so this track does not have any serious issues. Systems with too much emphasis in the middle mids to upper midrange will have issues with this track. The STAX 009 (which is not bright BTW) usually fails this test on most setups. This is both the fault of the recording and also the fault of the 009. (I think it's silly that most folks blame either one or the other, but never both.) 

Also I like a lot of the Taylor Swift material for DACs because her voice as a tendency of sounding very different between ladder and sigma-delta DACs. On SABRE DACs, her voice tends toward the grainy and raspy side.


Jennifer Warnes Rock You Gently

Some crazy sub and low bass. A good test for bass dynamics and extension. Also a little sharp with the percussion. That's how the recording should sound.


Eagles Hotel CA from Hell Freezes Over XRCD

Bass drop after the intro should have power and impact. Quite a few DACs go limp dick on this. Glenn Fry's voice should be sibilant. But not annoyingly so. Good for testing glare and sibilance. This is the infamous track which caused LFF to sit there with immense discomfort with a particular DAC. You guys should have seen this face. It was like "Dudes, don't torture me."

The intro is also a good test with microdynamics. Most DACs will sound compressed and either drop the softest sounds or compress them upward. The better DACs will have good speed and authority over the small volume changes. The guitar work should also have some body and a few thumps.


Tracy Chapman Fast Car Original CD

A otherwise good recording. Starting from the refrain "speed so fast I felt like I was a drunk.." where things kind of get busy, some DACs will fall apart and sound congested. Good DACs will maintain good separation and individualization of all instruments (guitars, voice, kick drum, bass guitar) with a notable increase in overall volume.


You guys can figure out what I'm trying to do. It's not rocket science. Just use a good set of recordings you are very familiar with. BTW, I tend not to use classical because most classical masters tend to be bandwidth limited. I hate the fact that 98% of harpsichord recordings have no bass. This is not according to my own experience with harpsichord - which I heard on an almost weekly basis for several years in college.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 03:45:51 AM by purrin »
Logged

Original_Ken

  • Thread Autocrat
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +19/-1647
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 254
  • uberFrost is the best deal in audio today
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 06:37:00 AM »

This is not according to my own experience with harpsichord - which I heard on an almost weekly basis for several years in college.
That explains why you can do all this.

On HF, I encounter many people who have never heard a musical instrument, and in fact, don't really understand what I mean by "the sound of a real instrument".

All they understand is making it "sound good like I like".
Logged

fishski13

  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +79/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 424
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 06:43:04 AM »

With amps, I start with just listening and twirling the knob.  I then move to volume matching with a DMM.  I usually start with comparing the HP outs of the BM DAC1.  Dealing with SAs can be a pain, as I would imagine sources that vary slightly in V-out.
Logged

DaveBSC

  • Best Korean Sympathizer
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +222/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2092
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 09:22:20 AM »

I appreciate your attempts at comparing DACs, I really do, but:

No level matching. You would be amazed how closely the volumes are matched when done by ear during a listening session, especially with familiar recordings. This is why I hate steppers.
[...]
Also, sometimes it's hard to level match. For example, in order to get the NAD M51 to have the same dynamics as the PWD2, I almost had to turn the volume knob up and down in real time along with the music.
This is seriously worrying.
Level matching should be done with a MM to below 0.1 dB error. MM's are cheap and I really see no reason why you wouldn't use one to do it properly.


No switch boxes. This is guaranteed to make all DACs sound the same. It's like drinking a Bordeaux from St. Julien followed by a Pauillac without first cleansing the palate.
Says who?


Also comparing notes from others (at the same session) is key. Sometimes someone may catch something which might warrant going back.
It sure is key if you want to bias each other. I mean, c'mon, why don't you write down what you heard (which already is biased anyway, since you know which DAC it is), and compare afterwards.

I seriously doubt you'd hear the same differences in a proper blind test.

Lol. I knew a post like this would be coming sooner or later. All of the methodologies described at the beginning of the thread are those used by the pro reviewer set. Sighted, extended listening sessions, lots of notes. What you think about a particular pro reviewer (or magazine) is besides the point, but there is a reason why everyone reviews this way.

What generally does not work - cheap switch boxes, and blind rapid switch ABX tests. That leads to "all non clipping amps sound the same."
Logged

shipsupt

  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +160/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1687
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 09:39:27 AM »

I think Shipsupt mentioned in another thread that he uses a punk record to test if the instruments can be resolved out of a blur of sound due to the marginal recording.

Absolutely!  I use a few live tracks from 7Seconds "Scream Real Loud" when I want to see how a system resolves bass in a complex mix.  A live punk recording really is a blur of sound, but Steve Youth is a talented bass player and you can hear his clean play if your system is resolving enough... ugh, did I really just say that, so cliche, but true!  Far from an audiophile recording these are included in my test tracks.
Logged
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Hands

  • Pizza the Hutt
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +331/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1591
  • Master of Revelatory Bird Calls and Fine Art
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2014, 10:55:02 AM »

  • Use of a set of recordings which we are familiar with down to the particular master. Some are good quality. Some are marginal. The marginal recordings are really good for pointing out trouble areas.

Oh, good. I'm not the only one that does this.

I generally use progressive metal tracks on my tests. I do it for many of the same reasons shipsupt does with punk (hard to resolve), but also because that's my go-to, favorite genre. My insane familiarity with Opeth's "Ghost of Perdition"'s intro more easily helps me identify and feel the differences. Between the Buried and Me can blur together on poor gear, as can "The Lotus Eater" (Opeth again, sorry).

If I can get something to sound really good with "Ghost of Perdition," it's almost guaranteed it will sound excellent for me on everything else. That's just how used to the song I am. That also plays a large role in why I generally like more laid-back but resolving gear.
Logged
The other master and I invite you to visit our digital museum of fine art and revelatory bird calls: https://www.facebook.com/SchrodsonkMuseum

Stapsy

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +21/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 423
  • a real bastid
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 11:48:12 AM »

For those that are not musically inclined, here are a couple of things I like to look for when testing out gear that I have found to be good indicators of quality gear (tone, resolution, dynamics, frequency response):

Drums -  Cymbals are by far the most difficult thing to record.  It is difficult to describe, but they should have good definition in the shimmer and do not sound like all one consistent note. Cymbals is one of the easiest ways to hear excess treble as they end up sounding very tizzy (for lack of a better word).  You should also be able to hear the rattle of the snare and get a sense of the tautness drums skins.

Guitar - The click of the pick when it hits the guitar strings is heard just slightly before the note comes out.  You can also hear the squeaking of the fingers as they move along the strings.  On some older Jazz guitar records, guys like Jim Hall would play with the amplifiers very low, so you can hear the acoustic sound of the guitar at the same time as the amplified sound.

Saxophone - The buzzing of the reed when the saxophone is overblown and the sound of blowing air when playing quietly.  Reed buzzing should be easy enough to hear on Coltrane/Rollins/Coleman/Sanders records, just listen to quiet saxophone passages and you will probably hear what I mean about playing quietly as well.  You should also be able to hear "tonguing".  Like the pick sound, it is a "te" before the note and is used to separate sounds.  Lastly, the sound of the keys opening and closing.  This one is easy enough as it sounds pretty much like typing on a keyboard.  Pretty common in quiet passages, my tests are usually if I can hear it in busier ones.

Piano - I don't have any good tracks for piano tone, but a good piano sound should carry some weight to it.  The piano is a percussive instrument (hammer attached to key hitting string) and a good recording will give you a sense of that.  This is similar to the tautness of drums.

I highly suggest anyone to go to a music store and bang on some drums or listen to someone who is.  Unless you have heard it in person it is very difficult to have a grasp of the correct sound.  Real instruments are very dynamic and can be quite harsh, especially in an enclosed space.  This is why perfect reproduction isn't the be all end all for me...it would get too annoying if you were listening to that all the time.  That being said, I think the above are good indicators of quality in the ability to accurately reproduce the sounds associated with an instrument that would be missed by someone who doesn't play or hasn't heard them in an intimate live setting.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:55:49 AM by Stapsy »
Logged

thegunner100

  • Hentai Master Chief
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +42/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 443
  • A chubby anime cat
    • The Emotional Skyscraper
Re: DAC comparison methodologies
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 02:13:22 PM »

Good discussion we're having here.

Also, I'd like to point out that after 2 hours of A/B between the gungnir and nfb-10es2 last week, I decided to add my hifimediy sabre dac to the switchbox for fun. I actually did not notice a difference between the hifime and the gungnir. This was most likely attributed to using the switchbox for quick a/bing, and/or fatigue.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5