CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:10:18 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Author Topic: The under-engineered $1,200 headphone  (Read 9407 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: The under-engineered $1,200 headphone / state of the headphone industry
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2012, 05:04:13 AM »

I'd like to study this a little more in depth but almost all of the relevant papers are behind the AES paywall and the documentation for the official standards are quite expensive too.


Let me see if I can dig up some interesting stuff for you- AES papers, etc.
Logged

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Re: The under-engineered $1,200 headphone / state of the headphone industry
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2012, 05:18:10 AM »

Cool.  Thanks.

You've got institutional access to that stuff or something?
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

rhythmdevils

  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +131/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • Team Cheap, Picky Basterds
    • www.my40dollarorhosarebetterthanyour1kflagship.com
Re: The under-engineered $1,200 headphone / state of the headphone industry
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2012, 06:59:09 PM »

Except for a little extra energy around 9-10kHz all the Lambdas are really close to an ideal free field FR which is basically how stuff would sound in a wide open space with no walls for stuff to reflect off of.  If the 507's FR doesn't sound pretty close to your Mackies being set up in an empty field then apparently your HRTF is pretty different from average.  :p

That's some circular logic there.  The sky is green, and if you see it as blue you have vision problems. 

The Lambda is definitely NOT neutral.  There is no way you could possibly make my speakers sound like Lambdas.  If they were neutral, they would be regarded as being neutral.  Only people who think they are flat are treble heads. 

I still don't buy the HRTF theory.  Sound waves reflecting off/absorbed by my body?  I call BS.  What happens when I stand on my head?  My speakers don't turn into Grados when I lie down as opposed to sit here.  And there's a million times more reflective/absorptive stuff in my room than that already, and it hardly changes them at all compared to the huge variety in headphones.  Yes, they do sound different in different rooms, but they always sound good.  Just slightly different flavors of good.  Probably like what Anax just posted about the top tier IEM's sounding slightly different, but all good and much closer than headphones. 

People hearing differently doesn't account for it.  IMO, the huge variation in headphones is from the fact that they are shitty, and the huge variation in our impressions comes from our brains, not our ears. 
Logged

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Re: The under-engineered $1,200 headphone / state of the headphone industry
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2012, 10:02:25 PM »

Your whole body does affect it to a degree but it's mostly about you outer ear and how it reflects sound differently based on the angle that the sound comes from.  That's why it's shaped so funny.  Cancellations and reinforcements caused by its shape change the FR that makes it to your eardrums based on the the direction the sound comes from and no direction is ruler flat.  When combined with delays and FR differences between each ear it lets your brain tell what direction a sound comes from.  Everyone's ears fairly similar but none are exactly the same.

Those curves I posted are averages.  If you don't fit them that doesn't mean your hearing sucks.  The fact that different people have different HRTFs does not matter outside of the context of headphones because only headphones bypass it by piping sound straight into your ears.  Your brain learns your own HRTF and that is what you perceive as neutral because that's how real life sounds to you.  If your ears were mutilated and changed in shape then even RL wouldn't sound neutral to you for until your brain had a few weeks to readjust.  This has actually happened to people.

This is what it boils down to.  Two different people can be in perfect agreement about which speakers have the most neutral FR but can still disagree about what headphones do if their HRTFs are different enough.

These things can and have been measured.  If you test a bunch of people by putting tiny microphones in their ear canals and play sine wave sweeps from a dead flat speaker directly in front of them inside an anechoic chamber and average all of them you'll get an FR pretty close to a Lambda.  Once you add in room reflections the curves get even brighter.  Once again, remember that these are averages.  Also remember that it only accounts for sound heard at the eardrum and leaves out the tactile sensation of bass.  That's one of the tradeoffs I mentioned earlier.

If this doesn't help I'm not sure how else to explain it.  Maybe if you got to demo a Smyth Realiser and compared someone else's HRTF calibration to your own you could hear how they can effect the sound.

Most of the other stuff you seem to be talking about isn't even about FR and that's all that an HRTF deals with in this case.  I'm breaking these problems down into different parts.  A headphone with a perfect FR (however you define perfect) can still sound like crap if it has high levels of distortion and painful ringing.  The fact that all the Lambda models have nearly the same FR but no one thinks that they all sound the the same should indicate this as well.

There are good reason why your Mackies are still going to sound like your Mackies no matter where you put them.  The drivers aren't going to start ringing or suffering from cone breakup just because you put them in an untreated room.  They'll always sound more natural because they're out away from you and their sound waves can properly interact with your outer ear because they're not strapped to your head.  After a small distance away from a person's ears neutral is just flat.  If it plays a violin solo from the bottom of drain pipe it will pretty much sound like an actual violin solo at the bottom of a drain pipe because in either case the FR will be modified by the environment and then by your outer ear.  All those interactions with the outer ear get messed up and don't happen the same way if the source is too close to it.

You're right that a lot of headphones are shitty.  Many don't even attempt any kind of neutrality.  Different HRTFs don't excuse or explain that.  They don't excuse or explain painful ringing or exposed reflective plastic on the inside of a $1200 headphone.  They do explain a a degree of variation between the FRs of different models of headphones.
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current

Why do I feel Beyer is using a random treble peak modeler to create their new headphones?
Logged

maverickronin

  • Objectively Sound
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +58/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 670
  • Your friendly neighborhood audio skeptic

I don't think it's all that random.  They obviously have a grudge against hair cells that sense the 7-10khz range.  Damn near everything they make has peak there even if it's not painfully loud on all of them.

The only one I can think of that doesn't is the T5p.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT5p.pdf

Or at least some of them.  This one kinda has it.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT5pSN2866.pdf

The nulls in the FR look like they'd turn into a painful CSD.  On IF, Tyll called them an "abomination of harshness".  I want to hear them like I want to see a train wreck.

Anyone here heard them?

EDIT:  I also have to thank you for the wonderful protip about how those really narrow nulls in the FR are usually really nasty peak with terrible ringing.  It's super useful.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 11:26:15 PM by maverickronin »
Logged
Heaven's closed - Hell's sold out - So I walk on Earth.

Currawong

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Powder Monkey
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +4/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65

Maybe their engineers only ever listen to classical?
Logged

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current


Damn germans. They just listen to Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, and this guy:

Logged

Maxvla

  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +211/-12
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1251

T5P is the only Beyer I actually sort of liked. TH900 is better, though.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6