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Author Topic: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM  (Read 14946 times)

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Original_Ken

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2013, 03:04:51 AM »

The thing I hate most about DSD is how much of my life was spent...
That sentiment certainly applies to me with VHS, and some DVDs that were replaced soon thereafter by Blu-Rays... and.... despite sound quality... LPs - where the work per minute of listening was an all-time high.
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Marvey

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2013, 06:07:15 PM »

I thought somebody worked out that DSD64 is roughly the equivalent of 24/117 or so.

Hard to compare directly. DSD's dynamic range or effective bits starts to decline after 24-25Hz because of the increase in quantization noise (from the inaccuracies of converting to 1-bit) Sonic information has a tendency to decrease in amplitude as we go higher up the ultrasonic range (whether we can hear the effects of this has nothing to do with this argument.) What happens is that DSD's quantization noise ends up actually higher than the actual sonic content in the ultrasonic region, effectively masking any real information.

Argument #2, all SACD and DSD software players filter this ultrasonic DSD quantization noise. So there's little past 40kHz, and what remains between 25-40kHz is still noise. Let me refer to the same graph I posted earlier and illustrate.



The three frequency spectrum analyses are not directly comparable because the they were taken from three different tracks, but you get the idea. (There's not huge difference in the frequency analysis in the areas which we want  to look at here in this instance.)

So where's the hires in DSD? Almost better off with 24/48.

Technically, DSD is one of the biggest scams pulled off on consumers.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 06:15:38 PM by purrin »
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DaveBSC

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2013, 06:28:01 PM »

Here's the same sort of idea put a different way...

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Marvey

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2013, 06:37:23 PM »

OMFG, DSD is even worse than I thought.
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Original_Ken

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2013, 06:40:44 PM »

Dave - the only thing missing is exactly what is being plotted ?
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schiit

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2013, 06:44:00 PM »

Here's the same sort of idea put a different way...



I love this chart. It's also worth searching out the PCM vs DSD output noise plots from some DACs that do both.
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xnor

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2013, 06:44:41 PM »

That DSD graph is of course without any post filter... else this could cause a lot of problems with downstream components.
edit: and it is not very accurate since it assumes -144 dB noise floor for 24 bit.


Since human hearing is usually limited to below 20 kHz DSD is not that bad. I still don't see why anyone would choose PDM over PCM regardless of bit depth / sample rate.
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ultrabike

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2013, 06:51:29 PM »

Dave - the only thing missing is exactly what is being plotted ?

It's the Noise Power Spectral Density of a particular DSD delta sigma design.

Check Figure. 4 in this one (7th order I think):
http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf
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DaveBSC

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2013, 08:44:02 PM »

Here's the same sort of idea put a different way...



I love this chart. It's also worth searching out the PCM vs DSD output noise plots from some DACs that do both.

There was a live demonstration at one of the audio shows where somebody used a chart like this to point out the positives of DSD - supposedly that it's more "analog like" because there's no hard cutoff as with PCM, and that "you still have 30dB of noise floor in the UHF range where PCM has none." I wish I could remember what that demo was, I know it's on the web.
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Maxvla

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Re: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2013, 09:08:30 PM »

An eye opening image for sure.

Edit- disregard previous entry. Reading chart wrong.
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