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Author Topic: DSD vs CD vs High-Res PCM  (Read 14946 times)

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anetode

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Re: What is DSD?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 03:16:13 AM »
24/192(or 384, 768...) does not offer an advantage over 24/96 but it does add new liabilities, as explained above.
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Anaxilus

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Re: What is DSD?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2013, 03:17:30 AM »
Quote from: anetode on December 14, 2013, 03:16:13 AM
24/192(or 384, 768...) does not offer an advantage over 24/96 but it does add new liabilities, as explained above.

That is what the math seems to reveal to me as well. I pretty much tend to avoid anything tagged 192. I have also heard 192 tracks that sound worse to me.
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Marvey

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Re: What is DSD?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 03:22:13 AM »
Correlation does not imply causation. Coincidence?

As mentioned in the DAC thread, it's possible for higher sample rates to sound different because the DACs may handle different sample rates differently, possibly with the roll-off filters and as Jason mentioned, the clock multipliers.

Or maybe it's possible the extra minute pieces of sonic information in the ultrasonic range do make the "bass sound better". That would have to be confirmed via frequency analysis to make sure information was actually there in the first place. There is quite a bit of "HD" stuff out there with no more information past 20 something kHz.
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Anaxilus

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Re: DSD vs PCM
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 03:27:41 AM »
Sounds like an easy thing to measure and show by comparing information in the bass region between the formats.  This isn't like cables or something.  The information is either in the source material or it isn't.  Otherwise a coloration is happening in the processing, just like upsampling often provides.
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OJneg

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Re: What is DSD?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 03:31:08 AM »
I remember the first time I got my hands on some DSD content I was thoroughly disappointed. This was back when I had completely bought into the DSD "hi-rez" hype and had yet to hear any negative opinions on the format, anywhere. I remember comparing the between the DSD and PCM layers of that disc and saying "huh...this is supposed to sound better?" To my ears, the DSD layer just sounded more artificial and weird. Like some sort of metallic sheen all over the music. Not sure if that gels with any of your guys experiences, but at the time I had no idea why a "superior" format could sound worse. After looking into it all more thoroughly, I'm as skeptical as you guys now. That coupled with the high prices and limited available of the format has made me abandon ship  walk the plank
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Original_Ken

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Re: DSD vs PCM
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 03:33:25 AM »
Quote from: purrin on December 14, 2013, 03:22:13 AM
Or maybe it's possible the extra minute pieces of sonic information in the ultrasonic range do make the "bass sound better". That would have to be confirmed via frequency analysis to make sure information was actually there in the first place. There is quite a bit of "HD" stuff out there with no more information past 20 something kHz.
I think the concept is that there can be zero data which has a frequency above 20khz, and yet there is a difference between the playback of a 24/192 and a 24/48 file made from the same digital master.

But, I don't think that these engineers are trying to claim that this has nothing to do with the recording and playback devices in use - they certainly have years of experience with tape and tape machines as being interrelated.
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anetode

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Re: What is DSD?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2013, 03:33:40 AM »
Quote from: purrin on December 14, 2013, 03:22:13 AM
Or maybe it's possible the extra minute pieces of sonic information in the ultrasonic range do make the "bass sound better". That would have to be confirmed via frequency analysis to make sure information was actually there in the first place. There is quite a bit of "HD" stuff out there with no more information past 20 something kHz.

This added information would presumably have to have some connection to the bass material, otherwise why not just go with a supertweeter blaring uncorrelated noise. Come to think of it, isn't that what Taket does?

It might be possible but there's no known mechanism behind why and how this should happen and no definite study results to show that ultrasonics are anything other than... well, imperceptible noise. There are quite a number of negative experimental results to make this possibility unlikely.
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Marvey

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Re: DSD vs PCM
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 03:38:35 AM »
This is not to say many DSD recordings do not sound good. Many SACDs do sound better than their CD counterparts. Not because DSD is inherently superior, but because the DSD is a different and superior master. Mastering engineers are unless less pressure to compress or brighten the shit out of something on a niche format not meant for the masses to play on their car radios and ipods.

However, sometimes the reverse is true, where the CD is a better master than the SACD. For example, the Michael Jackson Thriller SACD with its limp dick bass (Billie Jean sounds wrong) is worse than the original CD or the CD remasters.
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OJneg

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Re: DSD vs PCM
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 03:41:31 AM »
DSD and PCM layers of an SACD should be an identical master, no?

You guys ever tried listening tests between different layers or identical masters?
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Marvey

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Re: DSD vs PCM
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 03:42:13 AM »
Sometimes not.  :-DD  Sony has been known to put out a craptastic master on the CD layer to help show DSD's inherent "superiority" over CD.
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