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Author Topic: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions  (Read 22493 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

The same DSP block used in the SA-1?


Yes. And same deal on the Ref-5. Evidently he's designed his own digital filter solution based on that Alterra DSP chip. (Instead of the usual DIR9001, DF1704, CS8416, etc.) The only AGD PCM1704 based DAC that doesn't use the DSP chip is the NOS one, for obvious reasons.

It seemed like with the Ref7, there were like a dozen different software upgrade revisions for the DSP, each sounding slightly different. This was one of the reasons I did not feel comfortable with the AGD TOTL DACs (I did not want another PS Audio situation). But evidently, the software for the DSP has been stable for a long while - ever since the introduction of the M7.
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ColoradoGuy

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2013, 06:26:57 AM »

Thanks for impressions and the nifty spreadsheet comparative review of several high-profile DACs.

What pointed me towards the Google machine (and this site) was John Darko giving the Mytek a 5+ rating, the highest he's given any DAC. Huh? I've listened to the Mytek at some length on my system. Yes, DSD128 sounds pretty impressive, but it sounds impressive on just about any DAC ... and DSD128 converts very well to 176.4/24 PCM if you want to stay in the R2R camp. The Mytek's way with PCM, which is 99.9% of my music library (thanks to SACD's being nearly impossible to rip), is not as impressive. The Resonessence Invicta does a better job with PCM sources, although still not quite as good as my old-school Monarchy PCM-1704 DAC.

I was under the cheerful impression that my Monarchy had been thoroughly overtaken by modern 192/24 & DSD DACs. It only has a S/PDIF input, only goes up to 96/24, and has late-Nineties tech for the input receiver, oversampler, PCM-1704 converter, passive I/V conversion, and a 6DJ8 SRPP analog stage. Nothing cutting-edge about it.

So when a good audio-friend of mine threatened/promised to bring his Berkeley BADA DAC after the RMAF show a couple of years ago, I was expecting the worst. The BADA is three times the price of the Monarchy, designed by the very talented HDCD team, and represents the latest thinking in delta-sigma converters and high-speed analog sections. I really didn't want to spend $5000 on a DAC just then ... and the Berkeley USB -> S/PDIF converter was another $2000. So, $7000 to get a ticket on the modern DAC train.

But ... I was very surprised when I heard the two in a direct comparison. On my system, which I admit has a rather idiosyncratic power amplifier that doesn't sound like most other amps, the Berkeley was dynamically compressed and quite flat tonally, with a smaller and more closed-in soundstage. The expensive USB -> S/PDIF converter, on every selection played, was not as good as S/PDIF content from my SuperClocked Denon DV2900 transport. The Monarchy had far better dynamics and more vivid tone color, and the ambient impression filled the room, instead of being restricted to a space a little wider than the speakers.

Vacuum-tube euphonics? Well, maybe, but euphonic coloration doesn't usually add musical information, it just smooths out the rough edges. I heard more music, not less ... much more. The difference was larger than I expected, comparable to good-quality 320k AAC versus uncompressed Red Book. With 88.2/24 and 96/24 content, the differences between the two DACs narrowed considerably, but retained the same character .... the tonal colors, dynamics, and sense of pacing was noticeably flattened on the BADA. A very surprising result, not what I expected at all.

On my system at least, I had results completely the opposite of what I'd read in Computer Audiophile. That reviewer's speakers and amplifiers are completely different than mine, so perhaps that was the reason. I'm coming to a rough hypothesis that delta-sigma sounds better on Class AB transistor amplifiers than it does on Class A DHT triodes, which bring tonal vividness and dynamic shadings to the listener's attention. If a DAC is deficient in those areas, it's less noticeable on Class AB transistor amplifiers, which tend to have a flatter presentation.

But plenty of audiophiles prefer 200-watt amplifiers ... it's the majority choice, after all, and 20-watt DHT's are very much a speciality item for the fanatics who like that sound. All-transformer-coupled PP DHT's are even more rare, and almost never seen at hifi shows.

Thanks again, purrin, for your impressions of the AGD Master 7 fed with I2S data from the OffRamp 5 converter. Although the OR5 is pretty expensive for a mere format converter, I've had enough startling experiences with different transports sounding very di fferent that the OR5 might just be worth the moola. I'm guessing you sprang for the clock and power supply upgrades as well?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 06:55:06 AM by ColoradoGuy »
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Marvey

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2013, 03:20:18 PM »

Yeah, I can't quite figure out the Mytek DSD DAC. It's a mystery. Some folks love it, others hate it. It's a preferences thing, and I think it would be safe to say that most of the regulars here are allergic to the slightest hint of treble etch, glare, hardness, etc. The owner of the Mytek unit "reviewed" here immediately sold it after he heard it for himself, and two other owners I know of eventually got rid of theirs. In most of cases, the purchase was made because of DSD curiosity. (I prefer converting DSD to PCM in software) So far, it's 50/50 here with the folks chiming in on their experience with it (keeping in mind that 99% of us play mostly PCM material) I think it's scary Darko mentioned the Mytek is a better match than the Auralic Vega for brighter systems. I wonder how the Vega sounds like now (since the 6 Moons review was indecipherable.)

For my OR5, I only went for the Hynes regulator upgrade on the i2s output. The turboclocks are nice, but for me, they were in the territory of rapidly diminishing returns. Also, the turboclocks were sometimes, for certain material, too much of a good thing - they took a little meat off the bones, less body to instrument and vocals. I almost sprang for turboclocks as I have to admit that I sometimes wish I had them. If there were a toggle switch for engaging the turboclocks, I would have probably sprang for it.

I spoke to Steve at THE SHOW, and did mention a better PS would make the turboclocked units sound better. I really don't want to spend around $1k for a specialty power supply, so I'm exploring the use of an AMB Sigma11 power supply with +15V to replace the wall wart.

P.S.

Anaxilus also has an old Denon CD Player that he uses as a transport (he went through 5-6 in comparative test) and he preferred that to a fully upgraded OR5 to his PWD2. The good thing is the OR5 comes with a 30-day money back guarantee. Pretty gutsy, but at least Steve is willing to stand behind his unit.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 03:25:34 PM by purrin »
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DaveBSC

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2013, 03:32:07 PM »

I spoke to Steve at THE SHOW, and did mention a better PS would make the turboclocked units sound better. I really don't want to spend around $1k for a specialty power supply, so I'm exploring the use of an AMB Sigma11 power supply with +15V to replace the wall wart.

P.S.

I'm not sure what the Dynamo is going to cost, but I wouldn't be surprised if its that high, the old Monolith battery was something like $1200. Chris at BPT does linear supplies on custom order for closer to $400-500, it might be worth asking him to do one for the OR5. He also does 12V batteries as well, which is another route. Similar pricing IIRC.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2013, 03:56:37 PM »

Hmm...turbo clock switch.  I'd love to hear it w/ the new PS to see if that fixes it, otherwise a switch would be kind of badass as any negative aspects are rather genre specific.
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Marvey

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2013, 04:04:55 PM »

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ColoradoGuy

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2013, 07:15:25 PM »

Interesting about the Denon transport. I bought the DV2900 at a local audio-club swamp meet for a giveaway price of $200 ... and it already had a whole mess of mods, SuperClock, fancy caps, etc. etc. The sound from the analog outputs was no better than OK, probably just like the Oppo, but the S/PDIF was astonishing. I'd never heard the Monarchy sound like that before.
:)p7

OK, great sound, no complaints there. The surprise was auditioning several USB converters, including the Berkeley and Concero; all worse than the Denon, with the Red Book and DVD-A sources. Hmmm. I guess it's a really good transport, especially with the SuperClock mod.

The other cheap-mod surprise was the Behringer UltraMatch Pro, which has a useful range of settings for upsampling. The best sound from Red Book CD's is internal clock (using the internal ASRC instead of PLL clock from S/PDIF), 88.2/24 out, and dither ON at the 24-bit level. The Crystal ASRC works surprisingly well, and I haven't even messed with the thing. I've read several long articles by the designer of the Crystal ASRC, and he knows his filter theory.

My guess is that upsampling algorithms vary enormously in quality. We see that in video and Photoshop plug-ins as well; upsampling from 480i to 1080p can vary from fuzzy and jittery-looking to remarkably natural-looking and close to hi-def. The same in audio, I suspect.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:24:36 PM by ColoradoGuy »
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Marvey

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2013, 07:19:48 PM »

Thanks for the tidbit on Ultramatch Pro. I've heard others say great things about it as a re-clocker. I may pick one up now. Thinking about modding it with custom clocks, better PSU, etc.
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ColoradoGuy

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2013, 07:31:53 PM »

I would totally go for it; it's dirt cheap, and made by Behringer, so you know there's lots of room for improvement. Plenty of space inside the chassis, too. The clock swap and deluxe ultra-quiet power supply (no 3-pin regulators!) would be an obvious place to start.

A party trick I play for guests (after the RMAF show) is switching the dither from 16 bits, to 20 bits, to 24 bits. On a high-res system the expansion in space and improvement in musical timbre is obvious at each step. DACs just love dither; no surprise, since it linearizes just about any converter, regardless of technology. (Side note: if dither is common to both channels, or even has any degree of correlation at all, reverb will fade to mono, a very obnoxious effect. It always has to be completely independent for each channel. The Crystal spec-sheet makes a note of the device having independent dither for each channel.)

With the Master 7, you can play around and compare NOS + Behringer versus internal 8X signal processing. Many possibilities. Have fun.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:42:28 PM by ColoradoGuy »
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Marvey

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Re: Audio-GD Master 7 Stream of Consciousness Impressions
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2013, 07:10:26 AM »

Tried AGD M7 tonight in NOS mode. Very interesting. I like it a lot - to the extent of me thinking about putting in a toggle switch tied to the jumper. NOS mode is a departure from the M7's standard presentation. Tonally dense with a jet black background, but at the expense of hyper resolution. NOS is basically BYPASS mode. Bypasses the Alterra DSP. Had to use coax with NOS/Bypass mode since it does not gel well with i2s. WIth i2s, the center image gets shifted to the left and is unstable. I'm assuming one the bit or master clocks if off by a tick, or the LRclock got mixed up.

Also tried with PLL off. The Altera chip evidently has a PLL on/off option. PLL on is better. PLL off = shallow depth, less focus, less separation and layering.
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