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Author Topic: STAX Defects  (Read 4989 times)

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hiyu64

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2013, 10:28:49 PM »

007's are pretty reliable.  Apples and oranges to compare to the 009 failures.

Just because a Chinese company has an interest in a Japanese company doesn't mean that they are going to change the business model and start providing manpower or moving production locations.  That's exactly the kind of speculation that has created a lot of concern. 

I think you misunderstood, it's not that they won't accept a product for repair, it's about supporting a warranty for a product that has been sold to someone else. 

There is no doubt that STAX is not meeting the US consumers expectations, so let the free market sort it out.

It's not that a Chinese company has interest in STAX. they have already bought STAX.  http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/chinese-speaker-maker-edifier-purchases-famous-electrostatic-headphone-maker-stax.  I don't think you're seeing the potential fall out from this deal.  First of all, why would a giant Chinese speaker company buy STAX anyway? They're buying the STAX brand to make more money unless of course they're purely philanthropic and just wanted to support the evolution of electrostatic earspeakers.  It's not a charity, that much you can count on.  STAX japan has a small factory that employs a small number of people to not only do R&D but also manufacture STAX headphones.  With their small workforce and the growth of the STAX brand/sales over the years, it's harder for them to meet the demand for STAX headphones.  If you look at Pricejapan where they sell new SR009s at the cheapest price overseas, they indicate that it could take up to 3 months for the headphones to ship from the factory because they are heavily back ordered.  Although this may not show the whole situation regarding STAX, it does indicate they're having problems filling out the high volumes of orders.  Edifier, the chinese company, stated that it would leave the R&D and manufacturing solely to STAX while it provides funding and marketing.  These transactions happened in 2011-2012, and currently in 2013 STAX has the problem of filling orders promptly.  Obviously, the current STAX business model is not efficient enough.  It's not a question of if Edifier will cave in and use its own factories, it's a question of when.  And when that happens, it'll be harder and harder to maintain quality control.   

Also, I don't know if you're aware, but corruption is rampant in china not just in the officials, but in companies as well.  For example, I work part time as an English editor for a company that translates Chinese scientific manuscripts to English to publish in accredited international journals.  There's a lot of shady shit going on in the research community.  You've got biotech companies diluting a single tube of antibody and splitting it into several tubes to make more money.  You've got rich scientists paying companies to do experiments for them, and my personal favorite, you've got people asking companies to manufacture manuscripts.  The last example I've experienced first hand.  The other day one of our clients that used our editing services contacted us about his colleague who wanted us to manufacture a manuscript for him.  I don't know whether I was more appalled by the guy that wants us to manufacture a manuscript or our frequent client who thought nothing of it and contacted us about it.  I hope you can understand why I don't think highly of Chinese companies in the first place.  This is just my personal experience with chinese companies/business practices in my field.  Who's to say there isn't equivalent examples of corruption in the audio industry? 

Regarding the 007 failure rate, that was my mistake.  I was thinking of failed SR Omegas that were replaced with 007 drivers.  Nevertheless, 007s still fail maybe not as much as SR009s.  But is this acceptable? No.  especially when you take into considerations their price.  $5000 MSRP for 009s, and $1500-2000 for 007s

To me it should not matter if a second hand buyer contacts a company about warranty as long as they have the original sales receipt indicating the date of purchase from an authorized dealer.  The warranty is for normal use of product for X years.  As long as it's within the warranty period, what the fuck does it matter if a product was sold to someone else?  Most companies already declare warranties to be void for opening up the product, modifying the product, grey market sale of product, misuse of product, and other misleading miscellaneous things.  So, A legitimate warranty claim from a second hand owner that used the item within normal use SHOULD BE warrantied.
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MuppetFace

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 01:53:40 AM »

To my understanding, the deal brokered between Stax and their Chinese "benefactors" (I always think of Half-Life 2 when I use that word...) is such that Stax, the Japanese company, remains relatively unmolested and continues production of their ear speakers in Japan. However in exchange for their financial support, the Chinese company Edifier gets access to Stax's engineering know-how and can produce their own line of electrostatic products. I recall their press release saying they wanted to focus on portables and lower-end stuff specifically, which makes sense for their market. Stax's market however is not Edifier's market. They're a boutique company catering to a small niche, and it would be pointless to try to "ramp up" production. Edifier knows this. They also know it would be commercial suicide for Stax to pollute the lineage of their products being made in Japan, which is one of their big selling points within that small niche market. Apparently the CEO of Edifier has quite a bit of respect for Stax and is a personal fan of the company.

As for the failure rates of the SR-009, I honestly think the lack of public discussion is a direct function of their fiercely loyal fanbase, at least on English speaking boards. It's more cultish and close-knit than just about any other fanbase in head-fidom. As others have said, unlike Audez'e or HiFiMan who have a presence on head-fi and the like, raising a public stink isn't going to improve service; coupled with the fact that many Stax owners are repeat customers and likely perceive Stax as "usually getting it right," they're probably less likely to make a fuss over it. People like to seriously cling to the notion of Stax being the best of the best as silly as it may sound, so they give them a chance to right the wrong before raising it to public awareness.

Take the new SRS-002 portable for instance. I owned four different sets over the span of a few months, and each one had a high pitched whine when used in eco mode. Three of these sets came from domestic suppliers, and one came directly from Japan. So I figure the issue was pretty widespread. Also I knew three other people who had the same issue with their sets. Did you read much of ANYTHING about this issue on head-fi? Nope. I think I was the only person who actually posted about it. One person told me flat out, "I wont use eco mode so who cares?" Oh, brother.

I'd be very curious as to how forums in other languages (Japanese, Chinese, German, etc.) react to Stax and whether they're a bit more vocal in reporting this stuff.
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hiyu64

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 04:52:22 AM »

To my understanding, the deal brokered between Stax and their Chinese "benefactors" (I always think of Half-Life 2 when I use that word...) is such that Stax, the Japanese company, remains relatively unmolested and continues production of their ear speakers in Japan. However in exchange for their financial support, the Chinese company Edifier gets access to Stax's engineering know-how and can produce their own line of electrostatic products. I recall their press release saying they wanted to focus on portables and lower-end stuff specifically, which makes sense for their market. Stax's market however is not Edifier's market. They're a boutique company catering to a small niche, and it would be pointless to try to "ramp up" production. Edifier knows this. They also know it would be commercial suicide for Stax to pollute the lineage of their products being made in Japan, which is one of their big selling points within that small niche market. Apparently the CEO of Edifier has quite a bit of respect for Stax and is a personal fan of the company.

Yes, that's what the deal was and how it's operating at this time, but there's no guarantee they will continue to adhere to this business model down the road.  Anyway, even if Edifier sticks to portables and lower-end electrostatic earspeakers after they acquire the STAX technology, they will be in competition versus lower end STAX offerings.  STAX is a niche market within the audiophile niche market, a niche within a niche you could say. However, if you look at HF's growth from 2001 to 2013 for example, it's obvious that this niche market has grown considerably.  The market is pretty bloated although it may be still considered a niche market.  With the growth of the market, you've got an influx of newcomers who actually care about how their gear look stylistically.  It's no wonder that's partly the reason why V-Moda is raking in cash from young audiophiles.  The other part being how well the colorations on their headphones matches the tastes of these noobs,   Anyway, the lower end Stax gear will be less attractive compared to Edifier's offerings, which I'm sure will take into consideration how the product looks stylistically.  Also, when the hell is gaben going to release HL3 :(

As for the failure rates of the SR-009, I honestly think the lack of public discussion is a direct function of their fiercely loyal fanbase, at least on English speaking boards. It's more cultish and close-knit than just about any other fanbase in head-fidom. As others have said, unlike Audez'e or HiFiMan who have a presence on head-fi and the like, raising a public stink isn't going to improve service; coupled with the fact that many Stax owners are repeat customers and likely perceive Stax as "usually getting it right," they're probably less likely to make a fuss over it. People like to seriously cling to the notion of Stax being the best of the best as silly as it may sound, so they give them a chance to right the wrong before raising it to public awareness.

so...STAX is a secret club and those not circlejerking are obviously haters? Sure.  I do like to take a look at the negatives of a company before their positives.  After all, to me at least, 1 negative review is a lot more telling than 10 positive reviews. 

Take the new SRS-002 portable for instance. I owned four different sets over the span of a few months, and each one had a high pitched whine when used in eco mode. Three of these sets came from domestic su ppliers, and one came directly from Japan. So I figure the issue was pretty widespread. Also I knew three other people who had the same issue with their sets. Did you read much of ANYTHING about this issue on head-fi? Nope. I think I was the only person who actually posted about it. One person told me flat out, "I wont use eco mode so who cares?" Oh, brother.

I'd be very curious as to how forums in other languages (Japanese, Chinese, German, etc.) react to Stax and whether they're a bit more vocal in reporting this stuff.

I think it really depends on what your personal standards are and what is culturally expected/acceptable. I remember justin in the shoutbox talking about someone who ordered a BHSE and wanted reparations for repeated delays, as in a discount on the price.  I think justin explained to the guy that the chasis metal is on backorder or something like that and he was surprised and the guy would ask for a discount.  I could see a variety of possible buyer responses to something like this: 

1) You've got the guy that just takes it in the ass, and waits past the delays

2) You've got the guy that understands the situation, but says, "I understand that you're having trouble with your supplier; however, you've told me several different dates it's going to be done, but those dates are past and the product is not finished.  Although no promises were made, I've lost faith in your ability to deliver on your words.  I would like a refund, and I will take my business elsewhere"

3) You've got the guy that goes "this is unacceptable.  I don't care if you're having trouble with your supplier.  I paid YOU the 1/4 deposit on the BHSE.  The transaction is between YOU and ME and YOU have not fulfilled your end of the bargain.  For wasting my time, and keeping my deposit that could be used on other things.  I require a discount on this product or I'm taking my business elsewhere."

4) You've got the guy that goes "FUCK YOU MAtE, your mum s a whore and you eat shit for breakfast.  Give me a refund ya fuckface"

Ok, maybe the last one is a little exaggerated, but you get the point.  People have different standards and different cultures expect different things.  Entitlement you could say.  Number 3, I know too well is stereotypical of old fashioned chinese people.
 
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givemevinyl

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 05:17:06 AM »


Also, I don't know if you're aware, but corruption is rampant in china not just in the officials, but in companies as well.  For example, I work part time as an English editor for a company that translates Chinese scientific manuscripts to English to publish in accredited international journals.  There's a lot of shady shit going on in the research community.  You've got biotech companies diluting a single tube of antibody and splitting it into several tubes to make more money.  You've got rich scientists paying companies to do experiments for them, and my personal favorite, you've got people asking companies to manufacture manuscripts.  The last example I've experienced first hand.  The other day one of our clients that used our editing services contacted us about his colleague who wanted us to manufacture a manuscript for him.  I don't know whether I was more appalled by the guy that wants us to manufacture a manuscript or our frequent client who thought nothing of it and contacted us about it.  I hope you can understand why I don't think highly of Chinese companies in the first place.  This is just my personal experience with chinese companies/business practices in my field.  Who's to say there isn't equivalent examples of corruption in the audio industry? 


Surely you don't believe that pervasive corruption is somehow unique to China?  Surely you understand that it exists virtually everywhere in one form or another?  Surely you wouldn't deny the existence of equally appalling practices in similar frequency in the US and Europe?  Surely you understand that rampant corruption is more visible in China and developing nations simply because they haven't institutionalized it with the air of legitimacy that US/Europe have done?  Surely you understand the scale of your personal experience compared to, you know, the country of China? 

Yes, yes, I realize it's de rigueur to spout the everything-made-in-China-is-crap trope, but holy buhjesus, it sure would be refreshing if someone could, oh I don't know, offer a balanced, bias-free and nuanced understanding of, you know, China.
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shipsupt

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 11:46:48 AM »



It's not that a Chinese company has interest in STAX. they have already bought STAX. 
[/quote]

Having an interest means they own part of the company!!  facepalm   A right, claim, or legal share: an interest in the new company. 

You know what, if you can't get that I'm not even going to try to address the rest except to say that I've worked extensively in China for nearly 7 years now, so don't make assumptions about my experience there. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:52:49 AM by shipsupt »
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Marvey

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 05:34:42 PM »

Surely you don't believe that pervasive corruption is somehow unique to China?  Surely you understand that it exists virtually everywhere in one form or another?  Surely you wouldn't deny the existence of equally appalling practices in similar frequency in the US and Europe?  Surely you understand that rampant corruption is more visible in China and developing nations simply because they haven't institutionalized it with the air of legitimacy that US/Europe have done?  Surely you understand the scale of your personal experience compared to, you know, the country of China? 

Yes, yes, I realize it's de rigueur to spout the everything-made-in-China-is-crap trope, but holy buhjesus, it sure would be refreshing if someone could, oh I don't know, offer a balanced, bias-free and nuanced understanding of, you know, China.

There is "corruption" everywhere. When I was an IT Director of a bank, we had to establish data lines from the street to a new building we were constructing. This was in California. As usual, AT&T screwed up and we were set to move-in in a few days. Fortunately, one of our directors was golfing buddies with the VP of AT&T of the western region. I made one phone call and AT&T engineers were out the very next day! That's called greasing the wheels in the USA. I guess one can consider that a special form of corruption, or at the very least preferential treatment.

A few years ago, my dad (he's retired now) was responsible for setting up a new manufacturing plant in China and was in a similar situation that I was in. As recommended by the local staff, he instructed hong-bao to be delivered to local party leaders or their intermediaries, according to certain established protocols of course. LOL, even in Taiwan, it's bad. My uncle, who is in construction, actually got kidnapped. Long story...

The difference of course is one method is subtle, the other more brazen. I guess it's what you said. "Corruption" is legitimized or institutionalized here. But at least the rules (what you can and cannot do) are spelled out in the letter of the law. Having an independent judiciary and district attorneys / prosecutors (whose job, believe it or not, is actually to seek out those who break the law) greatly helps to the enforcement aspect. A lot people, including most Americans, don't understand the strengths of the legal /justice system in the USA. The worst aspect of it: it's slow.

As for China quality, it is extremely good for large scale manufacturers who can afford to control the process. Higher end or cutting edge equipment still gets made in the USA first, but that's mostly because the engineers are closer to the manufacturing plant - enables communication when things don't go right, which they never do with cutting edge stuff.

But China manufacturing quality is not so good for small companies who cannot control the process. A stack of audio transformers from China sits in an outdoor storage bin at Eddie Current's HQ. The final two prototypes met specifications. The actual production run resulted in crap which could not be used. Basically Mr. Eddie Current got ripped-off. The Chinese manufacturer substituted cheaper wire, wire of varying gauges, etc. for the production run.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 06:56:39 PM by purrin »
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kevin gilmore

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 11:24:13 PM »

you should see what the Chinese definition of 6061 aluminum is.

their version of awg is also kind of entertaining.
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zerodeefex

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2013, 03:21:53 AM »

Take the new SRS-002 portable for instance. I owned four different sets over the span of a few months, and each one had a high pitched whine when used in eco mode. Three of these sets came from domestic suppliers, and one came directly from Japan. So I figure the issue was pretty widespread. Also I knew three other people who had the same issue with their sets. Did you read much of ANYTHING about this issue on head-fi? Nope. I think I was the only person who actually posted about it. One person told me flat out, "I wont use eco mode so who cares?" Oh, brother.

Mine has had this since day one. I ignored it since I figured I could live with it. Now the cable @ the connector end into the amp is going. I'm debating whether to pick up a new cable, or just pick up a regular amp + the SR 003 mk2 cable.
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Drakkard

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2013, 03:31:03 PM »

Very interesting, and a painful theme. Besides obvious lack of communication between company and customers (well we suck at it too), I want to talk about a bit different things. SR-009 is totally a high-end headphone by all means, with some very tricky engineering involved, that is hard to control by itself (I think it uses the thinnest diaphragm ever used in headphones, correct me if im wrong). It is understandable also. In all respect, Audeze drivers does not come at this level of perfection, or even nearby. Besides it is a totally different technology. So, I highly doubt Stax lacking reliability happens because they just dont care. I think it is more complicated. Like, they, just cant change anything more in production process to improve the quality (set aside Edifier for now). It is highly possibly, as they are only one around doing such things. And, as was mentioned earlier, they are small company.
So, which possibilities it leaves us with? I saw only, like, two myself:
1. Make a huge price increase, so they can double and triple-check all bunches before release. Considering the current price, it is... Well, very debatable. I can easily see that price in that condition can go up to 1.5-2 times increase. How many will be ready to buy it now? How Stax can justify the performance\price then?
2. They just shut down the production. Well, it is more realistic to me, than the previous. So. Do you like having SR-009 with current problems, or just do not having it at all? I wonder.
The case is, if they were scamming people, or do not fullfill their service responsibilities - it is one thing. But I do not think STAX do this. It may be hard to get something from them, but it does not mean it is impossible. Just harder than in some other companies. Really, I do not see the perfect answer for this. With all the possible problems, myself, I still prefer SR-009 to exist. Yes, I do not consider buying it right now, but if I will, it will not change my attitude much.
And just to add, I have a friend who got problematic SR-009 as well. And waited several months for repair.
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aj-kun

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Re: STAX Defects
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 06:35:12 PM »

Just ordered an sr-007 from price japan then I see this :| lets hope I don't have any QC issues.
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