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Author Topic: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion  (Read 2100 times)

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Solderdude

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Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« on: June 26, 2013, 09:46:45 AM »

a low-pass will not reconstruct the effects of zero-order hold. Am I wrong here?


a low pass filter won't reconstruct as the 'ideal' filter does (which also cannot be built ideally but in practice will be less steep).
If the DAC could only do one single sample frequency (say 44.1k) a steep high order analog filter low pass can be used which smoothes (removes) the steps that appear at the DAC chip's output pin.
In NOS CDP's it was done this way.
When using oversampling the steps are already smaller and thus the analog low pass can be lower order and will still 'remove' (smooth) the higher frequency steps.

The practical problem, however, is DAC's must be able to handle multiple formats AND when we are using higher sample rates we want the higher frequencies (those above the audible range) to be present as well. In theory you could use a fixed higher order low pass filter dropping off just above 20kHz for the higher bandwidths as well but this would upset those that are of the opinion they can hear upto 50kHz and defeat the purpose of higher sample rates as well.

As the 'steps' filtering in modern (many times) oversampling/interpolating DACs is handled in the digital domain the analog section can be made with a low order low-pass (may even be as low as 1st order) behind the DAC and does NOT serve as 'smoothing' or reconstruction filter in this case as this is done digital. It is intended to only to remove the HF garbage that remains (after upsampling) and could affect equipment connected to the DAC. (Purrin mentioned this already)

The fact that in multi-samplerate DAC's a low pass filter isn't used for reconstruction doesn't mean that you cannot use a low pass to 'smooth' the steps that would otherwise be there. All (earlier) CDP operate with this method.

As stated in a previous post; to 'smooth' in an all-analog way the low-pass filter would have to be variable in frequency and  be of high-order which is impractical and complicated to build to say the least.
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xnor

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 11:13:09 AM »

@purrin: It's not just that. When doing A/D conversion you need proper filters or else you end up with high frequencies "folding back" into the audible range. Same goes for resampling e.g. from 96 to 44.1 kHz.
NOS have so much problems, especially near half the sample rate, that I guess this doesn't matter.

As for the O2. People who cannot set up the most basic thing (gain) right shouldn't be in this hobby.


Quote (selected)
The farther the ultra-high frequency junk is from 20kHz (~limit of human hearing), the better because more gentle, less steep filters (which have less phase shift and probably other more desirable behavior - this is ultrabike's area of expertise) can be used. The very early CD Players were NOS, and there was some audiophile debate back in the early 80s whether this harshness was because of the steep brickwall analog filters used to kill junk at 44.1kHz. Thus oversampling DAC were born. But please, let's not debate that. That was the 80s.
The analog filter can be a lot simpler, cheaper.
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Marvey

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 04:00:26 PM »


I think you are correct. Those are compensation filters which can be implemented in the digital domain...



Now I'm curious about the filters in the digital domain - and how the process the signal even before the analog filter.


I know the Wolfson chips have this functionality. (PWD, Gamma2, etc.)
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Marvey

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 04:09:02 PM »

As for the O2. People who cannot set up the most basic thing (gain) right shouldn't be in this hobby.

Wow, I hope you aren't serious! That's like saying that people who can't setup their ignition timing with a strobe (old tech) on their cars shouldn't be driving them.

BTW, more than 50% of the mods / site founders here don't know how to set up gain nor do they care about it.
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xnor

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 04:09:11 PM »

I am serious. A more fitting analogy would be buying a racing car with manual gear change when all you can drive is automatic and all you need is driving to the shopping mall from time to time.

Gain is a very basic concept and getting it right is vital in every system imo.
To those who cannot divide two numbers, or are too lazy to look up ~3 numbers .. they can ask their dealer who should know about gain (if he/she doesn't switch your dealer) or just ask in forums.

.. and stock O2 gains should work fine with standard sources.
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Marvey

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 04:15:46 PM »

One thing you have to understand about US culture is the concept of "consumer".  People don't read instruction manuals here. People are able to pass driving tests without being able to parallel park. The driving test in California doesn't even include a highway (high-speed) portion. And stick-shifts with clutch are dead. (I gave up trying to find cars with manual transmissions a few years back, even thought I learned to drive on a stick.)
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xnor

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 04:37:55 PM »

Ugh, glad I'm not driving on those streets. Also, most cars around here have manual transmission.

It's not really about reading manuals or not but understanding what you're buying. If a consumer just wants to listen to music he/she usually will just get an ipod. The idea of a headphone amp will probably sound ridiculous to the average joe.
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shipsupt

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 04:40:36 PM »

Ugh, glad I'm not driving on those streets.

As are we.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Marvey

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 04:54:41 PM »

It's not that bad in the US. Try driving in Taiwan where traffic rules and laws are optional (at least in the non-urban areas / small towns.) It's actually kind of fun dodging mopeds, motorcycles, dump-trucks, etc. who ignore lanes, lines, and red lights. But strangely enough, there are informal right of way rules.
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donunus

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Re: Ringing/Anti-aliasing Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 05:47:04 PM »

I love driving in the US. Try driving here in the Philippines (the worst streets to drive in the world along with India) LOL. Driving here is a chore unless you are drunk where you can drive like you are playing a cool ps3 game. In California, I can drive for 7 hours straight without stress
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