CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: ultrabike on February 07, 2014, 09:46:22 AM
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A friend lent me these for a few days. IMO these are a great deal for $70 something. This particular set is pristine and well taken care off.
Sound
Awesome. These sound very close to my HD558s. Perhaps a little more bass slam and darker, but fairly close. That said, IMO this is not a basshead phone (the owner is a proud bottom note luver that prefers his M-50s, and is planning on a DIY >= 18" sub). Like the HD558, these are not analytical nor huge detail extractors. However, I feel these offer great balance, and are easy on the ears.
Comfort
Pretty comfy... However, my HD558 stock cushions seem higher quality and softer than what came with these. Pads are replaceable tho, and I think HD558 pads fit these.
Presentation
I prefer the presentation of my HD558s better, but these look K to me. Many might not agree w me, but I like how these ones look better than the HD598.
Price
When I got my HD558s, they where cheaper used than the HD518 (used or not). Now it's the other way around, so if I was on the market for mid-fi stuff, these would be at the top of my list. For ~$70 these should be kicking ass and taking names at every local store stand. However while Dubstep Girl agrees, Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus don't. Proly needs moar bling.
Overal
Awesome.
Measurements
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5538;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5504;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5506;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5508;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5514;image)
Impedance
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5512;image)
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Frequency response comparos
HD558 (white) vs HD518 (red)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5540;image)
HD600 (blue) vs HD518 (red)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5544;image)
HD600 (blue) vs HD558 (white)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5542;image)
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Thanks for the measurements. I bought these as a gift for someone so it's good to see that they're competitive with the other Senns I've heard.
Why the 20db scale, though? It makes the phones you measure look better than purr in's at first glance. Why not match his 10db scale?
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Thanks for the measurements. I bought these as a gift for someone so it's good to see that they're competitive with the other Senns I've heard.
Why the 20db scale, though? It makes the phones you measure look better than purr in's at first glance. Why not match his 10db scale?
EDIT: I see what you mean. I don't think the grid resolution is that important, but the y-scale range is about 60 dB instead of 36 dB. I'll correct that tonite.
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Even the lower end models on the HD series are excellent in terms of neutrality. This is why I've been a Senn fanboy for so long I suppose. :)p1
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Indeed the 20 dB grid makes things look nicer than they might be, most of us here are entirely used to Marv's 10 dB grid with regards to evaluating the FR patterns.
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Are they about as refined as the hd598? But with a slightly different tonality? That would be a great value indeed
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I think they are somewhat close to the HD558s. I only have limited experience with the HD598s. That said I listened to this particular set (HD518) before making measurements for a reasonable chunk of time, and at least this particular sample is definitively darker and has more bass than my HD558s and HD600s.
They are relatively fairly smooth to my ears though. That is commendable given the price point. I also find them elegant and comfortable. IMO they have a lot of things going for them.
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Plots updated! :)p4
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What a fat bottom! headbang
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:)p13 Yeah. It's mostly upper bass and lower mids though, and to me it does sound like so.
If looking for tha-bass, the M-50s seem to deliver the goods (which my friend appreciates and highly regards):
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5548;image)
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I wonder how much of the HD5x8's harmonic distortion is caused by the enclosure and overall implementation (ex: fabric behind grill vs. entirely open grill, foam directly behind driver or not, etc.) and how much is simply inherent to the driver.
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I think both the enclosure and the driver play an important part.
As far as differences between the HD518 and HD558, I think I drove my HD558 (and HD600) hotter when I took measurements in the past. It is possible that I calibrated SPL level w white noise instead of pink (about a 2-3 dB difference). After recalibration, I remeasured both my HD558 and these HD518s and the distortion numbers seemed fairly close.
I'm not certain, but enclosure aside, I do feel the HD6x0 family have more linear drivers. I also feel the HD5x8 cans (at least the ones I've measured) have similar non-linear behavior, at least in stock form.
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I don't doubt the HD6x0 drivers have inherently better performance, though I do admit I was surprised how close your HD558 and HD600 measurements were a few posts back.
Do you have those re-done distortion measurements to compare the headphones?
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so hands down do you like these much better than the m50 Ultrabike? I was thinking of picking up a pair myself.
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I don't doubt the HD6x0 drivers have inherently better performance, though I do admit I was surprised how close your HD558 and HD600 measurements were a few posts back.
Do you have those re-done distortion measurements to compare the headphones?
Yes, to my ears the HD600 and the HD558 seem to be pretty close. That said, I feel the HD600 is a tad less dark and cleaner sounding.
Below are the distortion measurements of the HD558 and HD518 right drivers using 90 dB SPL calibrated both with pink noise.
HD518
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5552;image)
HD558
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5554;image)
Distortion numbers are not exactly the same, but they are not so grossly off IMO.
so hands down do you like these much better than the m50 Ultrabike? I was thinking of picking up a pair myself.
Not necessarily. I prefer the HD518 to the M50 in general. But the friend that lent me his HD518s also lent me his M50 both which I measured, and he prefers his M50 hands down.
He told me that the measurements did correlate with what he heard. He is also a fairly proud bass head, and likes what his M50s bring to the table. To him the M50 have cleaner bass, and I sort of agree with that. He is more into speakers though, and my previous comment about him looking into a DIY > 18" sub is a fact. He has a HSU 15" which makes his pants happily flap, but wants moar.
In regards to the HD518 vs HD558, the HD518 extra upper bass does has it's appeal to me. In fact, I could easily fall for either one depending on my mood and universe alignment.
All of these are good cans IMO.
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I was wondering, looking at the graphs, are there really reasons for not choosing a headphone like the new HD500 series or the HD600 series?
The FR of all of them look overall enjoyable and you can pick your "color" in terms of bottom quantity. Plus, looking at waterfall & harmonic distortion, are there really bad aspects? They look pretty okay to me and my ears. The only thing I can think of is the lack of bass extension. But, disregarding that,are there really any better dynamic offers besides the HD800 (which still isn't perfect)?
Also, is the jump from HD558 to HD600 really an upgrade in terms of "hearable" performance, or is it just mainly build quality and comfort (disregarding higher impedance)?
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All the HD500 and 600 series roll-off in bass far earlier than what the graphs here would indicate. That's my biggest beef with them. Only the HD800 has some decent extension, but I don't like the overall balance of its signature.
So yea that's my reason for not choosing an HD5-6xx.
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The bass on my HD580s sounds significantly better/deeper than the H598, and the overall sound quality is better.
Is there any chance of measurements (or opinions) on the PX-100ii? I wonder how far down the Sennheiser ladder you can go and still have good performance. I have a pair of Koss KSC-75 (with the Parts Express headband) that I like some aspects of the sound of. They sound more "open" for lack of a better term, less like headphones, than most phones including the good Senns. But the bass isn't great, and the treble is a fatiguing mess. I was thinking of trying the PX100ii in the hope that as a similar open on-ear it might have some of the qualities I like in the KSC-75 without the problems.
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I think my HD600s fit me a little tighter and better than my HD558s, and that might account for some of the perception differences w most of the music I have. Perhaps that's why I felt they were "cleaner" in the bass area, even though the measurements do seem to indicate lower distortion all the way to the upper bass (hearable or not).
Other than that, higher impedance is actually one of the main reasons I finally decided to get my HD600s: Flexibility to check out other amps out there.
As far as there being other better dynamics (orthos or stats), that IMO is a question of priorities, personal preferences, and chaotic mood swings. Most of the time though I do seem to gravitate more towards the signature of the Senns than most other cans (including Stax and Audeze). No immediate plans to sell either of my HD558s or HD600s.
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I think my HD600s fit me a little tighter and better than my HD558s, and that might account for some of the perception differences w most of the music I have. Perhaps that's why I felt they were "cleaner" in the bass area, even though the measurements do seem to indicate lower distortion all the way to the upper bass (hearable or not).
Other than that, higher impedance is actually one of the main reasons I finally decided to get my HD600s: Flexibility to check out other amps out there.
As far as there being other better dynamics (orthos or stats), that IMO is a question of priorities, personal preferences, and chaotic mood swings. Most of the time though I do seem to gravitate more towards the signature of the Senns than most other cans (including Stax and Audeze). No immediate plans to sell either of my HD558s or HD600s.
The only Senn's I've ever heard are the HD25s. A pretty egregious sin in the world of audiophiles, I know...
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I owned these for a month, and I concur with everything that ultrabike has said above. IMHO, they have a more realistic upper bass/lower mid presentation than many other headphones.
He did omit that they have excellent soundstage and imaging, especially for the price, probably due to the angled driver mounting.
To elaborate on one issue mentioned by ultrabike, the way to go is to get 558 pads and use them on the 518s.
These are very highly rated by Headroom, btw.
IMHO, best full size headphones under $100, except that I have not heard all of them, of course.
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How are the pads different? I thought all the pads in the HD5xx/6xx series were the same.
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How are the pads different? I thought all the pads in the HD5xx/6xx series were the same.
The HD558 are a nice velour, while the HD518 are a cheaper, slightly scratchy synthetic pseudo-velour-like fabric.
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Yes, at least the stock pads of the HD518 I had w me seemed to have that synthetic pseudo-velour foam-like feel to them. The HD518s pads were sort of straight angled and squareish around the edges, while the HD558 seems more rounded donut like.
Also, the HD600s and HD558s seem to have different pads:
1) The HD600 pads have full solid plastic backing. The HD558 have solid plastic backing edges and leatherette material towards the center.
2) The velour pads are denser on the HD600s vs the HD558s.
3) The HD600 pads seem to be a little more "hollow" towards the center. The HD558 pads are more uniform.
Both the HD558s and HD518s have angled drivers. The HD600s are straight shooters.
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Yes, the one unfortunate aspect of Senn is that they have the marketing paradigm of many models in every possible price range. They then produce artificial feature tiers. Some of these are related to materials which ultimately aren't that far apart in basic cost.
In fact, (read carefully), take all of Senn's full size headphones that retail for $100 or more, and add up the total worldwide sales quantity of all of them. If they manufactured the HD800 in that same quantity (as the total sales of all their models), I am willing to bet that they could sell the HD800 for a profit at $199...
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(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1434.0;attach=5544;image)
HD600 (blue) vs HD518 (red)
Angled drivers would cause a lift in that exact non-overlapping frequency range. That's why I'm not a huge fan of the Stax Sigmas - they're all midrange. Also, am I right in thinking that the 518's cups are a little more closed than the rest of the 5x8 series?
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Can the HD6xx pads mount into the HD5xx frames? I think I have an extra HD600 set of pads somewhere.
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Angled drivers would cause a lift in that exact non-overlapping frequency range. That's why I'm not a huge fan of the Stax Sigmas - they're all midrange. Also, am I right in thinking that the 518's cups are a little more closed than the rest of the 5x8 series?
Yes, the HD518 are more closed than the rest of the 5x8 series, and that indeed may be a contributing factor for the lift as well.
Can the HD6xx pads mount into the HD5xx frames? I think I have an extra HD600 set of pads somewhere.
No worries, I'll try that tonite... (EDIT: HD558s, since currently I don't have the HD518s w me anymore)
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Can you try measuring the 518 using the 558s velour pads? That would be very interesting.
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Sorry, I don't have them w me anymore. If I get a chance again, I'll give that a shot.
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Curious to know if the HD6xx pads work as well. I, uh, bought another HD598 (had one a couple years ago). Already took out the material behind the metal grill like I did with my old one. Also put some dynamat on the back of the driver magnet and put some open foam over it (cues from the HD6x0). Placed a bit of adhesive craft foam around the edge of the driver as well. Small chance these might help with the bass distortion. Might try some other mods.
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Just checked. Pads of the HD5x8 and HD6x0 are not interchangeable. The pad plastic ring diameter is larger on the HD558s than HD600s.
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Darnit. Well I guess that gives me an excuse to reacquire the HD6xx at some point in the future.
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I want hd518s enough now that I will send my newly acquired sony ma900s for trade with a new pair despite the price difference if anyone is interested. Just pay for the shipping from me to you though since the ma900s do cost quite a bit more than the 518s
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I want hd518s enough now that I will send my newly acquired sony ma900s for trade with a new pair despite the price difference if anyone is interested. Just pay for the shipping from me to you though since the ma900s do cost quite a bit more than the 518s
The MA900s are better :) ... although quite different. MA900 do yet better at the HD518 strong points of open-ness, air and sense of space. Detail and resolution are better in the MA900. MA900 is even better at the HD518 strong points of lightness and comfort. Both have slightly cheap ear pad material. :)
Are you in the USA ? HD518 on Amazon are $76, MA900 are $235.
I suppose I could PayPal you $76 and sell the MA900s on ebay for $200 since they are discontinued and unavailable.
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I am in the Philippines. It may cost around 30 dollars to ship the ma900s to you so if you can give me 190 for them all in all or ship me some brand new 518s plus 30 bucks via paypal I am fine with that :D
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Starts to get a little complicated that way. I already have MA900s so don't need another pair.
Are you on head-fi ? Just post a Trade Request - if your item is worth more, then you have a pretty good chance of someone wanting to do it. And HF has way more members.
Again, having owned both, I can't imagine wanting to use the HD518 instead of the MA900.
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Ken, how does the MA900 compare in terms of bass response overall? I'm not sure if it's just my tastes or what, but the HD598 has always sounded slightly leaner and laid-back (overall, not just in treble) than measurements made me think. IIRC, measurements generally show the MA900 having a slight rise around 100Hz and a fairly sharp drop off after. Not sure about harmonic distortion, though. (I've heard headphones with similar characteristics in measurements that didn't sound as lean as the HD598...bass quality wasn't always guaranteed, though.)
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Ken, how does the MA900 compare in terms of bass response overall? I'm not sure if it's just my tastes or what, but the HD598 has always sounded slightly leaner and laid-back (overall, not just in treble) than measurements made me think. IIRC, measurements generally show the MA900 having a slight rise around 100Hz and a fairly sharp drop off after. Not sure about harmonic distortion, though. (I've heard headphones with similar characteristics in measurements that didn't sound as lean as the HD598...bass quality wasn't always guaranteed, though.)
On the MA900s, the point where the sliders enter the headband is loose. If you wrap that point with Gorilla tape (or any tightly holding tape), it improves the quality of the bass response (to a small degree, not dramatic).
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/f/f3/900x900px-LL-f3a1b0f8_DCP_5650.jpeg)
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If a bit of tape improves the lifespan and bass response I can only hope you did not pay full price for the Sony.
p:8
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My problem with the sonys are that they distort at volumes too low for me to enjoy while all the senn 5xx cans I've tried has never had that problem.
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If a bit of tape improves the lifespan and bass response I can only hope you did not pay full price for the Sony.
I'm not sure where you are getting "lifespan" from?
And you do know about Anax's mod for the $1500 HD800s that consists of adding some paper or fabric ?
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My problem with the sonys are that they distort at volumes too low for me to enjoy while all the senn 5xx cans I've tried has never had that problem.
That sounds like either a defect or an amp/headphones mismatch. I use my MA900s out of the headphone jack of a 330watt amplifier and no distortion.
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If a bit of tape improves the lifespan and bass response I can only hope you did not pay full price for the Sony.
I'm not sure where you are getting "lifespan" from?
And you do know about Anax's mod for the $1500 HD800s that consists of adding some paper or fabric ?
Lifespan increases with tape to stop the headband from breaking.
The HD800 has a fine headband and I once considered buying a HD800 for its presentation after auditioning. The HD800 is great headphone for what it does well. It simply is not the only headphone that does what it does.
I get the point. My remark was addressed at the headband weakness. When a cheap HD201 or SHP2000 is better built then what makes Sony think they can deliver crappy build quality? Either way tape solves many problems and yes I always have tape in storage for small fixes.
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Actually a lot of parts on the MA900 that look like plastic at first glance, are actually thin metal. The headband doesn't seem particularly fragile.
The tape is just at the point where the slider exit the headband, which is a loose and wobbly connection. By taping it, you provide a more solid framework for the driver to push against, which makes the bass a little more solid.
(The MA900 is an odd product - a large amount of research went into the design of the driver enclosure, which has IIRC a patented bass enhancing design. Then, after the prototype was done, for some reason it was implemented as the top end of a super-cheap product line with cheap materials, rather than a premium product competitive with the HD600 and K701. Of course, only Sony employees know what happened...)
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Ken, I remember reading about that tape mod before, but do you have any other subjective thoughts on my earlier question? (How lean or not the MA900 sounds compared to the HD5x8 line)
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My problem with the sonys are that they distort at volumes too low for me to enjoy while all the senn 5xx cans I've tried has never had that problem.
That sounds like either a defect or an amp/headphones mismatch. I use my MA900s out of the headphone jack of a 330watt amplifier and no distortion.
Its weird though because both drivers distort at the same volume making me rule out that its a defect. Unless they have matched defective drivers LOL
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Ken, I remember reading about that tape mod before, but do you have any other subjective thoughts on my earlier question? (How lean or not the MA900 sounds compared to the HD5x8 line)
I have not heard the 558 or 598. Based on listening only, the HD518 has a lower midrange-upper bass bump that makes things like cello sound more prominent. For certain types of music, that works well.
The MA900 is a little light on what some call 'sub-bass' but is not overall light in bass otherwise. It doesn't have that same lower midrange prominence. But when there are bass notes in the music, there is no sense of lack.
BTW, it is low in impedance, and so one would think that it would not work well with the Bottlehead Crack or other amps specifically designed for high impedance headphones.
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Just received a brand spankin new hd518. A little bright out of the box but from my experience with senns, my guess is that this bright sibilance goes away in time. I'll run it in overnight with some random music and tones and see if there is a difference within 8 hours or so.
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Just a few hours cookin and the highs have improved quite a bit like I assumed. For those that like to shout placebo, I assure you it is not. It was like a dt880 out of the box and now the highs are more like regular senns.
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IMO it's a pretty awesome headphone for $79 (free shipping).
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Happy new headphone day! :)p1 headbang
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Just a few hours cookin and the highs have improved quite a bit like I assumed. For those that like to shout placebo, I assure you it is not. It was like a dt880 out of the box and now the highs are more like regular senns.
Burn in made a noticeable difference on some AKG K272HD's up to about 50 hours. I kept really good notes on it. Bass strengthened and tightened up, and soundstage tamed its weird where's-my-center-now? drift a bit. No discernible tonal change but detail improved. I checked every 8 or so hours comparing them to some well loved K171 Mk II's. Nothing changed between 56 and 64 hours so I quit at that point. On the other hand, burn-in did absolutely nothing so far as I could tell on a set of K142HD's. Weird, 'cause they use the same driver. :-Z
Enjoy the phones. They're definitely worth their price! 8)
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I don't have my old 558s anymore but I think I may like these a little more due to the slightly richer upper bass region. The refinement seems to be about the same from how I remember the 558s. Very worthy cans indeed! I would say that these cans are good enough to keep me happy for a long time and being that they sell these for under $100 is an insane value. This is now my top recommendation for cans in this price range or even for double the price.
Neutralitywise, my old favorite, the Beyer dt250-250 may be a little better but these topple those down in terms of fun factor in terms of having better dynamics, presence/aliveness, airyness, and soundstage.
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One thing that may be a plus or a minus for these are the fact that they tend to match better with the tonality of remastered albums more than early pressings. I think it is a plus for the intended customers though based on the fact that these are budget audiophile oriented cans. I think the average listener that doesn't nitpick about collecting old pressings of favorite albums from the 60s-90s will most likely have remasters/reissues or new cds/albums with modern mastering.
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The HD518, HD558 and HD598 have that warmish and even presentation that makes most music agreeable to listen to. Sennheiser knows how to get that presentation just right.
After short auditions I slightly preferred the HD558 due to a bit more detail for my ears. The retail price for the HD518 is very attractive at the moment.
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Somewhere around 3khz the 558 bites a little too much for me. That was actually my major annoyance with them out of the box since I am very sensitive to 3 to 4khz peaks. Ultrabike's measurements got me interested due to the fact that the 518s seem to be free from that peak that the 558 has in that region. It turns out the measurements jive well with my ears. The additional bass is also nice to add punch since these 5xx series of cans aren't all that punchy to begin with.
Thanks Ultrabike for making this thread. It really reminded me that I needed to try them out and now I am a happy camper. Alternative to Classical to Jazz sounds stunning on these. They are raw and ready headbang
The only thing that could be done to make these cans better is to maybe remove that 1.8khz dip and maybe have slightly less highs... I would pay over $300 just for those changes even though the cans aren't in that price tier when it comes to refinement.
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Welcome mate! :money: and glad you like them.
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I just put on some hd595 pads on the 518 and they just went up a level in refinement. The slight midbass boost is gone and the highs dont scream as much and the upper mids went up up just enough to remove the veil. Perfect! I am not going back to the stock pads unless I want extra V-Boost :D
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Listening for a while though and the k518 stock pads have a nice sound with alternative music that the 595 pads cant do.
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HD518 + HD595 ear pads = just as good as the DT250-250 in general or different?
I am curious...
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The dt250-250 is without a doubt more neutral to my ears. The senns are more dynamic and spacious however and gives more of an audiophile stunt show so to speak :D I would be happy with either of them TBH
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and by the way, in the end... the stock pads just work better overall
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I enjoy the HD555 immensely witch measures similarly to the HD518 only slightly flatter and better if you ask me. I wish they continued the Production of the HD555, for sale used its anyway a real bargain for the price. (http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=2821&graphID[]=563&scale=30)
My pair:
(http://s30.postimg.org/uczrdq8ep/555.jpg)
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Based on that HeadRoom plot, it may seem that the HD555 is closer to the HD558 than the HD518. Dunno about distortion tho, and would have to hear the HD555s to make any judgement.