CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Vinyl Nutjob World => Topic started by: OJneg on May 22, 2015, 06:36:23 PM
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So this all started back in December when we were at Marv's place playing with a few different turntables. I figured the easiest way to compare them would be to plug them into different phono stages and and then switch the cables to the amp in order to go back and forth. Obviously because switching the phono cables is more of PITA because they have that extra screw-in chassis ground to work with. But what we heard was surprising in that the differences between the phono stages seemed to be on the same level (and in certain cases usurp) that of the turntables.
I've heard a lot of people talk about which parts of the chain are most important and where to invest their $$$. Most agree that the transducers (headphones, speakers, phono cartridges) generally produce t he biggest differences. Some say that DACs make a bigger difference than amps, and vice versa. Regardless, I would say that phono pres produce bigger differences than either relatively. The phono carts really had the ability to make or break the system from what I was hearing.
I'm going to send these to CT and let him listen before I post my impressions. BTW guys, it's not too late if you want to send any other cheap-ish phono stuff our way for comparison. PM me.
OJ's thoughts: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2449.msg67979.html#msg67979
drfindley's thoughts: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2449.msg76611.html#msg76611
Anax's thoughts: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2449.msg76622.html#msg76622
(http://i.imgur.com/j1ydvox.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GpG4ykT.jpg)
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>> http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2449.msg76611.html#msg76611
Agree on most counts, although I don't have the Rega Fono. Here's my rankings based on what I had on hand.
TC-750 + AMB sigma11: Best of the bunch. Very clear and believable sound. Natural without treble edge. It does reveal the slight edginess that these AT cartridges can have (both 95e and 440MLa) but that's mostly not its fault. Unconstrained dynamics both micro and macro which is why Anax likes it the most too. This thing sounds crazy good for a $50 box from China; doesn't make any sense. Cannot vouch for use with random SMPS's.
Parasound Zphono: Great bass extension and impact. Similar sound to Mani but better bass balances things out to make more listenable. Good overall sound I could easily live with this. Doesn't have the natural and resolving qualities of the TCC.
Schiit Mani: Close between this and the Zphono. Mani seems to be more on the analytical side. Very fast and energetic, but there's some congestion and lack of ease that keeps you out of the music.
Creek OBH15: A more forward sound with plenty of midrange sweetness. Pretty good with speakers; I noted I liked the staging. Unfortunately kinda veiled and boring. Doesn't come alive.
TTVJ Hybrid Phono Preamp: Obvious treble grain and lack of refinement. Accompanied by a fair bit of tube warmth. I didn't like this phono. sigma11 didn't help.
Music Hall pa1.2: A lesser Creek.
For perspective:
Awesomeballz
TC750
.
.
Zphono
Mani
.
.
.
Creek OBH11
.
TTVJ
.
.
pa1.2
Meh
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I'm going to send these to CT and let him listen before I post my impressions. BTW guys, it's not too late if you want to send any other cheap-ish phono stuff our way for comparison. PM me.
If someone has an Emotiva XPS, please send it in for this. https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xps-1
Looking forward to this.
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Does the Rega Fono MM count at $400? I'm pretty close to CT
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I also have this gem to offer: http://www.amazon.com/TC-754-BLACK-Phono-Preamplifier-Switchable/dp/B000ZZINTK/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1432321399&sr=1-6
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^Cool...I will try to do the comparo and pass off to you, Dr. Findley to add to the comparo.
The Parasound (new retail) and the TTVJ are about $400 so that Rega should make it.
The EC Transcription Phono Pre I have on loan may not be cheap enough, however. :&
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I have a Musical Fidelity V-LPS II. It is a long, long time since I even turned the deck on, but my memory is that I wasn't that impressed, and, out of some digitising sample runs, I thought that even Audacity did the RIAA curve better in software!
Purely subjective: maybe the MF box's slightly flat feel was actually more realistic. I don't know.
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Updated OP with two more entrants. Thanks burns :)p5
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Ahhh HAAA
Here is where it went
Saw the orig thread from last Oct and thought this idea just fizzled...
Glad to see it's sill alive
Got my cursor hovering over the checkout button at Schiit....
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We had a nice audition at my house with the Levi and modded HD800s. OJ helped me get my dad's old Dual 1019 up and running. Thing hasn't spun a platter in over 35+ years. Wow, what a difference a pre can make. I definitely look forward to updating this thread in future.
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I have a Hagerman Bugle phono board (battery powered) sitting in the cupboard if you have any interest. Or you may have listened already, not sure about the time frame.
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I now have the cheap Phono Preamps but will pass them to drfindley as soon as I can after the meet CS is having in SoCal. I am finishing up other old projects so not sure I am gonna do the big comparo. (I just wanna listen to music for a while, man.) Right now I plan on keeping my Parasound Phono Pre and selling my TTVJ Hybrid Phono Pre. I'll probably lend both to drfindley if he wants to put them in his comparo too.
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Alright, sorry for taking a bit, but I finally got a chance to give these a listen. I'm with OJ, I found the preamps have a big effect on the sound.
I have two setups:
Rega RP6 w/ a Ortolan 2M Black cart
Technics SL-1200 Mark II w/ a Audio Technica AT440MLA cart.
I've ordered these in the order I liked worst to best:
Music hall - pa1.2
The least likable of the bunch by far. Very mid-forward, rather slow not terribly resolving. Very laid-back It was a little muddy and overall just not great. It just kinda a little sad and lifeless.
Schiit Modi
This pre-amp has more bark than bite. it's kinda the opposite of the Music Hall. It's more resolving and quite a bit faster, but unfortunately, it's too fast. It has a lot of attack, but not a lot of sustain and comes off rather thin. It has good punch on the highs and the lows, but the mids are relaxed.
TCC TC-750
This was the biggest surprise. It's a $50 amp from China beloved by reviewers on Amazon. Overall it resolves pretty well with good clarity. Attack and sustain is pretty good, but it's not great. I think wiring it up to a better power supply could make a much bigger difference here and make it sound better than the Rega. Great frequency response throughout, better than the rest.
Rega Fono MM
As the most expensive preamp in the bunch by far (~$400), one would hope that it would sound better and it does. It has better attack and sustain than the TC-750, and is a bit clearer sounding. It's resolving and has good clarity. I found on the AT440MLA it was a little too bright, but on the Ortofon Black it sounded better. I believe the TC-750 is a bit bright. The bass extension was great and the mids were detailed.
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Agree on most counts, although I don't have the Rega Fono. Here's my rankings based on what I had on hand.
TC-750 + AMB sigma11: Best of the bunch. Very clear and believable sound. Natural without treble edge. It does reveal the slight edginess that these AT cartridges can have (both 95e and 440MLa) but that's mostly not its fault. Unconstrained dynamics both micro and macro which is why Anax likes it the most too. This thing sounds crazy good for a $50 box from China; doesn't make any sense. Cannot vouch for use with random SMPS's.
Parasound Zphono: Great bass extension and impact. Similar sound to Mani but better bass balances things out to make more listenable. Good overall sound I could easily live with this. Doesn't have the natural and resolving qualities of the TCC.
Schiit Mani: Close between this and the Zphono. Mani seems to be more on the analytical side. Very fast and energetic, but there's some congestion and lack of ease that keeps you out of the music.
Creek OBH15: A more forward sound with plenty of midrange sweetness. Pretty good with speakers; I noted I liked the staging. Unfortunately kinda veiled and boring. Doesn't come alive.
TTVJ Hybrid Phono Preamp: Obvious treble grain and lack of refinement. Accompanied by a fair bit of tube warmth. I didn't like this phono. sigma11 didn't help.
Music Hall pa1.2: A lesser Creek.
For perspective:
Awesomeballz
TC750
.
.
Zphono
Mani
.
.
.
Creek OBH11
.
TTVJ
.
.
pa1.2
Meh
[copied to 2nd post]
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Agreed with everyone above. The Parasound definitely is a smoother and warmer sound than the Mani which has a slightly more solid state sound to it. Great for bassheads that also like added warmth. Hits hard and low. The 750 w/ a good PS is amazing bang/buck and my preferred of all (haven't heard the Rega). Should be a no brainer for the leaderboard. Do note that there are two 750s with very slightly different RIAA measurements that may or may not be audible to some.
With gain pot:
(http://www.hifiguru.se/public/img/user/TCC_tc-750__1_.jpg)
Without gain pot:
(http://djdj.nl/cat/l/ndpreamppro_2.jpg)
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very slightly different RIAA measurements that may or may not be audible to some.
He still has my TCC AFAIK
Also updated OP
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He still has my TCC AFAIK
Yeah, I have your TCC with the gain pot.
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Wow, I picked up a TC-750LC per the recommendations of this thread and I'm really impressed. I'm using a Marantz tt-15 (w/ stock Clearaudio Virtuoso) -> tc-750lc -> Ragnarok -> Stock HD600/650/800 and I immediately notice a much lower noise floor compared to my Hagtech Bugle 2 (with the stock wallwart) and it seems much more engaging & dynamic overall. I'm using the "upgraded" Magellan 1A SMPS, but I've got the sudden urge to get out my soldering iron & build a Sigma 11 now...
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Wow, I picked up a TC-750LC per the recommendations of this thread and I'm really impressed. I'm using a Marantz tt-15 (w/ stock Clearaudio Virtuoso) -> tc-750lc -> Ragnarok -> Stock HD600/650/800 and I immediately notice a much lower noise floor compared to my Hagtech Bugle 2 (with the stock wallwart) and it seems much more engaging & dynamic overall. I'm using the "upgraded" Magellan 1A SMPS, but I've got the sudden urge to get out my soldering iron & build a Sigma 11 now...
Gratz, glad you like it. We were surprised as well. Maybe hold off on the solder for a bit. We will be doing a Sigma 11 PS shootout versus some cheap shunt regulated power supplies. We may be surprised even further.
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may have to send you my cheap $10 ebay hack. I upgraded coupling caps, soldered in a socket to chip roll and modified a few of the resistor values to better work with the ortofon MC20
..dB
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I actually by a small margin preferred the TC-750 or TC-754 with the TC-754's external SMPS (it looks like a bigger unit compared to the TC-750's SMPS) over the Schiit Mani.
The Mani is well extended in both bass and treble, has great control, good slam, but ultimately sounded less clear and flatter. The TC-750 with the TC-754 PS wasn't as well extended in the bass, but was marginally clearer and definitely more lively if not a bit more grainy. With the Sigma-11, the TC-750 just sort snapped into place and ran away from the Mani with the huge dynamics, increased resolution, refinement and poise. Obviously this comparison is not fair since a commissioned AMB Sigma-11 is about $350 more.
It does make sense though. The TC-750 is all discrete with no opamps. There appears plenty of room for improvement. I believe there are two input and two output caps, both electrolytics. There is cap sound; and stock, I though it sounded a bit grainy. I did parallel the output caps of my TC-750 with tiny 0.1uF WIMAs. Might be interesting completely replacing all of those 'lytics with poly / film caps. They are small values, so it should be doable.
Finally, the TC-754 does sound a bit warmer than the TC-750, and tiny tiny bit more veiled - probably from the multiple input switching circuitry.
P.S. I'm putting together a shunt PS from a kit and a SOLA power supply on the cheap from eBay. Don't laugh. Both of these were considerably better sounding than the Sigma 11 on the BW. There's no guarantee it will be the same with the TC-750, but they are worth a try since effort will be minimal.